Regulated air using CO2 adapter
I got my eTaCO2 from Jim Gaska yesterday and tried it out today using a 48 cubic inch steel air tank with a 1850 psi regulator. I don’t have a working chronograph right now but I am sure it sends the 22 caliber pellets downrange faster than the CO2 does because they go all the way through the layer of duct seal. They never went that deep with CO2. I also think that Jim’s eTaC02 gives a little better performance than the AF CO2 adapter, it is hard to tell because I can’t switch back and forth. I sent my CO2 adapter to Jim and he switched the valve over to the eTacC02 for me.
The eTaC02 from Jim Gaska and the regulator.
My Talon SS with the regulated tank and my $47 eBay Leapers 4-16x56AO SWAT scope that came yesterday.
25 yard target, I was pretty wobbly today so it wasn’t the Talon’s fault. Also it was a tin of CP pellets that I had spilled all over the garage floor and swept up with a broom. I noticed they didn’t shoot as good in my 2240 after I spilled and retrieved them. 
I filled the tank up to 2500 psi then shot 76 times. When I started to refill it the needle was just a hair over 2200 psi when the check valve in the regulator clicked open.
When I get a chronograph I will be able to see what kind of velocity I’m getting.
My Talon SS is one of the early models. Here is the end cap off of the shroud. Notice how it is threaded, it is held in the shroud by a insert with female threads that is held in place by a grub screw.
The seller on eBay said the scope was for parts or non-working, said it was blurry. I saw they sold thousands of items every week from store closeouts so I took a chance on it. I figured they didn’t take the time to read the manuals on everything they sold. After UPS delivered it yesterday I saw it was like brand new and the AO turret was set at 10 yards. This is the clearest scope I have ever looked through, better than my Burris, as long as the AO is adjusted properly. The only problem I found was that the IR would light up briefly and go out but there was an extra battery in the box so I replaced it. After that it worked just fine.
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A paintball shop will NOT fill the tank over that 20-30% Co2/volume ratio, just like no scuba shop woud not fill a scuba tank past 3000..or its rated value.
Go to Florida and ask most scuba shops for a “Cave Fill”. I routinely have my 130 CF steel tank, rated at 3540 filled to 4000/4200 psi. It has a 5K burst disk and they are hydro tested every year at 5/3 recommended fill pressure, or 5750 psi (water fill). Chrome/Moly steel. It’s not the tanks, it’s the valves and seals that are the weak link.
As for C02 fills….you must live a very protected life, in a carefully gated community, with small dogs that shit on your shoes. You can buy anything out there, IF you know who to ask and where to go. You can, however, blow your balls off if you don’t know what you are doing. I’ve known peope who blew their balls off, and they knew what they were doing. Life has no guarantees.
I happen to fit all the above categories….and have done all of the above, including owning a small dog that shit on my shoes. My first Talon was Co2. The AF has no “regulator” on its tanks. They simply have a device which fits a Condor valve into their tank. My Co2 rarely shot below 850 to 950 fps, and it was a .22 caliber. Did I use light pellets, high tank temperatures, overfill…I’ll never tell! When a person pushes anything to the limit, he/she uses every trick at hand. I eventually found no reason to push a pellet over 950 fps because they lose accuracy. 850 to 950 fps gives you all you need and keeps you subsonic. Most importantly, this forum is about people unsatisfied with the status quo. OEM is a three letter word. If it can’t be pushed to the limit, and beyond, or modified to do what it wasn’t designed to do…why not stay at home and watch the Lifetime channel?
This forum is an excellent place to find out how to do foolhardy and dangerous things. We all agree you should never do what we say, or what we do. Our forum information is for academic purposes only.
In fact, for liability reasons, I suggest everyone run, when they see a Co2 or hpa tank, and hide under the bed until they pass. Hpa and Co2 can kill you…and probably will, so stay away from it!
But….what my balls and I do in the privacy of my neighbor’s back yard is no one’s business except mine and the police.
Now, give yourself an enema, gargle for one minute with a quality, generic mouth wash, quit abusing yourself, wash your hands for three minutes, wipe down that sticky keyboard with a quality disinfectant, stay off the porn sites, and enjoy the forum.
Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T
damm, mrnewbie, that was a flick in the nuts!
however, its not unheard of to find bulk filling equip to DIY, but i digress…
i occasionally time the co2 adapter to where the hole inside is at 6 o clock. this is to ensure that liquid always finds its way into the adapter, which isnt regulated. so the pressure is dependent upon the temp of the co2 in the adapter, not subject to any regulation. im not sure where this would fall in the pressure/temp diagram, but familiarize yourself with the term “superheat”, due to the fact that co2 is a refrigerant gas(i have epa sec.608 certification), but ive never directly analyzed an enthalpy chart for co2, you guys can, im sure it exists… 😕
(Actually, everyone can be “right” when it comes to Co2. It can be manipulated so many ways, depending on % of fill, and bottle temperature.
Here is the definitive chart. You will note the ultimate expansion psi is solely dependent upon % of bottle fill, and bottle temperature.
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Hootadam1977, oh that was bad 😀 🙄
You will note the ultimate expansion psi is solely dependent upon % of bottle fill, and bottle temperature..
I agree, but painball Co2 tanks have a designated % bottle fill and that is around 20-30 percent.
You CAN NOT fill a co2 paintball tank to the 80% you keep talkin about.
A paintball shop will NOT fill the tank over that 20-30% Co2/volume ratio, just like no scuba shop woud not fill a scuba tank past 3000..or its rated value
Untill Tom K comes out with a Co2 shoebox, you just can’t do it.
Sorry Hoot, you do not have a choice
What do you think, you go to a shop have your Co2 tank filled and think it at 100% pure co2/air ratio then go look at your chart? Then take 40 shots figure its at 80% …then look at the chart?
No, No, No..that tank is considered full at the 20-30% pre-designated co2/Air volume ratio…for the paintball C02 tank, and it stays there.
Ok since your own chart and all this typing has not convinced you , lets look at it from a common sense angle.
All paintball tanks have built in regulators including Co2(regulated by fill ratio), the standard is around 850psi output.
1)Do you really think a paintball park would let someone shoot Co2 if it could make even close to 1600 psi? Lawsuit time
2)Why would any paintballer DOWNGRADE to HPA and a crummy 850psi output, if they could shoot Co2 at anywhere close to 1600ps?
Sorry Hoot, all painball tanks are designed to output around 850psi, CO2 tanks INCLUDED.
The standard Co2 tank has an output of 850psi and at any temp..it will NEVER EVER reach 1600psi, look at chart at 20-30%
So quit telling people about 1600psi, that is a hypothetical situation that assumes you could fill the tank to a non-standard fill ratio.
850psi is it
Your right Interesting and fun
Sorry about the Hootadam1977 remark..wait a min..no I’m not..just teasing, no real harm intended 😆
Actually, everyone can be “right” when it comes to Co2. It can be manipulated so many ways, depending on % of fill, and bottle temperature.
Here is the definitive chart. You will note the ultimate expansion psi is solely dependent upon % of bottle fill, and bottle temperature.
In the Texas sun, the bottle temperature on a 110 degree day could easily hit 120 degrees and more. How warm you keep your bottle is your business. I’ve even known some people to wrap the tanks with the chemical hand warmers from Wallyworld, during the Winter.
Anyway, what you do is your business, but the abgve criteria will tell you which direction to go. After your tank is filled, dip it in warm water for a few seconds, pull it out upright, and note where the chill line stops. You can calculate the % of tank fill from there. Some dealers might fill a bit over the recommended ounces, perhaps not. Just depends.
Enjoy yourself…safely. Never follow advice given on this column. Stop abusing yourself…it will turn the whites of your eyes green!!!
Kindly Uncle Hoot 😯
The chart speaks for itself.
Recall that the Co2 tanks are generally fitted with 3K burst disks. Beyond that factor, each of us does what we do. Some follow the directions, some don’t. Why, I’ve even known individuals who have filled the Co2 tanks with 3000 psi hpa and used them without incident. Dangerous….yes! So’s crossing the street. I’m not recommending anyone do it. But it has been done more than once.
Perhaps WOK, or one of the sane Admins, will put this up in the Reference section. It is a very good reference, once you figure out how to read it, to determine what can be done with Co2 to get maximum fps/fpe.
Interesting discussion.
There’s a conservative viewpoint, and then there’s mine. I’ve always advised “Don’t do as I say…and for damn sure don’t do as I do!”
Kindest regards,
Feeble ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T
I agree completely!
Your graph supports my point of view.
We know that a Co2 paintball tank is only 20-30% full of liquid Co2, measured in onces. A paintball shop will NEVER fill your tank 80% with Co2, they don’t want you shooting a friend at 1600psi. The fact that at 80% fill can make 1600psi is irrelevant, and a 100% fill gives you 2500psi, so what. Look at the graph in the 20-30% range and do not stray from there. What is the most pressure you see on the graph? Perhaps some big industrial tanks get filled to higher pressures(higher co2 %), not us little paintball guys.
Could you fill a paintball Co2 tank to more than 20-30%, sure you could, just like we could fill our Condor tanks to 3500, if you run the painball shop, but that is not what Whislers post was about. He was shooting a regular co2 paintball tank, from a regular paintball shop at the standard 20-30% fill that makes around 850psi. Ok, up to 1200 on a 120degree day
Here’s what I’m talking about…
For example, at an 80% fill, at 120 degrees bottle temperature (summer in Texas/Arkansas), co2 expansion, at one atm is around 1600 psi.
It all has to do with percentage of filled container, temperature of filled container, and distance above/below sea level.
Co2 is tricky stuff to calculate.
Keep your colon clear and you’ll be just fine. DO NOT flush it with Co2!!!
Kindest regards,
Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T
Hoot I thought I made a mistake once also, I was right
I may have to change that to twice!
I was under the impression that Co2 upon hitting the air only produces 850psi, your saying 1600. I hooked up a guage to a Co2 tank it read under 1000, I would guess 850 would be close. If a pressure gauge only sees 850, why would a gun valve/reg see any diff?
A Co2 tank is only like 25% full of Co2 liquid. The rest is ambient Co2/Air gas mixture that is at around 850psi (temp dependent). When you pull your trigger, the gas/air mix that has already EXPANDED comes out..not the liquid. As the pressure in the tank drops..you took a shot, the Co2 -re-expands to fill the gap, right around 850psi(temp dependent). The Co2 is not a magic liquid that get to expand twice, it does not expand in the Co2 tank to a gas form then re-expand as its going down the barrel for a 2nd time. It EXPANDS to 850psi period, and its done at 850psi!
So my conclusion is, there is always 850psi in your Co2 tank untill all the Co2 is gone. This is what makes Co2 nice, always the same psi. Co2 in a sense is self regulating, as the pressure in the tank drops below 850psi, it expands to get back up to the 850psi mark.
I may be wrong, may be right, either way Whisler has moved on to HPA, and its my guess he is shooting in the low to mid 800fps range.
just a tip: to make the performance slightly more predictable, i stuck those sticker type of aquarium thermometers on my co2 bottles, and it represents the almost exact tank temp. and you can then find the corresponding pressure. clean the tank off well wherever you put it, and you may need to apply just a small drop of cyanoacrylate glue (super glue) on the ends so it dont peel up.
What’s the pressure in a CO2 tank? google search
As long as there is liquid in the tank, the pressure in a CO2 tank is determined ONLY by the temperature. At room temperature (70 degrees F) its about 853 psi.
No No No…. pistachio nuts, that’s 850 psi presence in the bottle, at an ambient temperature of 70F! That is the pressure needed to keep Co2 liquid. A Co2 bottle isn’t filled with gas, it is compressed Co2 liquid! With Co2 gaseous presence filling the remaining empty portion of the bottle.
Remember, Co2 tanks are filled by the liquid ounce, not by the psi! You don’t ask for 2500 psi of Co2 at the dealer, you ask for 25 ounces.
When the Co2 gas is released into sea level atmosphere, which is 14.695 psi of pressure, it’s psi potential, which is solely based on ambient air temperature. What exists in the barrel behind the pellet, when the valve releases Co2, is roughly 800/850 psi vapor pressure, and that psi expands until the Co2 hits 1 ATM just outside the barrel.
So, the Co2 gas enters the chamber at the flash point release pressure of at least 850 psi, higher if the bottle is above 70F, and expands to double or triple psi as it travels the length of the barrel towards the 1 ATM (14.695 psi) of pressure surrounding the earth at sea level. Muzzle energy and fps is solely dependent upon ambient air temperature, and more importantly the internal bottle temperature.
If the ambient temperature (F) is higher than 70F, then the bottled pressure of Co2 rises beyond 1850 psi well up into the 2K/200 Bar range, which equates to a higher exist muzzle velocity of the pellet.
If you want to supercharge a Co2 rifle, make the gas somewhat warmer, but be careful. Most Co2 bottles are marked 1850 psi max, but have a burst disk of 3K, but that doesn’t mean you can hold a propane torch on the bottle before each shot.
In the Texas summer, with my Co2 rifle in the afternoon sun, I could go supersonic with .117 pellets, and not have the rifle explode. However, I’ve also had a valve lockup on me under those same circumstances.
Most Co2 shooting anticipates an ambient temperature of 70F to 100F. Stay with bottle temps inside those ranges and you’ll get all the power you need. How you manage to do that depends on your common sense.
Don’t blow off a testicle and blame me. I only shoot Co2 at exactly 70F. Any higher or lower and I go inside and hide under the bed.
Kindest regards,
Hoot 😯
how do you know my bowels function properly?
You can’t compress a liquid…
The gaseous vapor psi in the remaining tank will indeed vary according to temperature. However, when liquid Co2 is released from the pressure needed to keep it at a liquid state, it’s psi as a gasous form is dependent upon ambient air temperature.
Generally speaking, the psi of Co2 released from liquid form is 1600 psi at or around 70 F. However, if it’s 100 F, that psi will indeed increase.
What you cannot do is vary the fill pressure of a Co2 tank. When you take the tank into a scuba or paintball shop, they fill it by liquid ounces, not psi.
Therefore, whereby, and to wit…..I’m confused when you thistlewits discuss filling a Co2 tank to varying pressures.
Only ambient temperature in the tank determines the gaseous pressure of Co2 available. (Google ‘Smegma’ for information)
I find myself bothered, bewitched, and bewildered, by the prior remarks of individuals who appear to otherwise be sane, intelligent, and possessing normal bowl and colon motility.
Above all….remember the remarks of Sun Tsu, the ancient Chinese War Lord, and warrier/philosopher, who in 1953 once said… “You may hear what I said, but you do not necessarily say what I hear! Just as a wise man sees what he saw, but knows he has watched only what he has seen….Burma Shave!!!”
Get on this and get back to me.
Kindest regards,
Uncle “Co2” Hoot 😯
Hoot I thought I made a mistake once also, I was right
What’s the pressure in a CO2 tank? google search
As long as there is liquid in the tank, the pressure in a CO2 tank is determined ONLY by the temperature. At room temperature (70 degrees F) its about 853 psi.
So Whistler,, you are shooting them out quite a bit faster. I did some extensive testing with HPA paintball tanks and AF Co2 adapter, even upped the output pressure all the way up to 2400psi. There seems to be some point of diminishing power gains. I did not see much fps increase much past 2000psi, think it has something to do with the volume of air being regulated with a paintball tanks built in regulator. Just not enough air volume (this is where a real JDS reg comes in)
With the above being said…22 cal gun 24″ barrel,it shot in the low to mid 800’s fps. So your in that ballpark
Note: fill your tank to 2300-2400 and shoot down to 1600-1700, no need to put 3000psi in tank. 1850psi was a good choice
The CO2 valve in Talon pcp rifles is a Condor HPA valve, fitted with a thread adapter to screw into a refillable CO2 tank.
If Jim put the Condor valve on an EtaC, and you screwed the EtaC into a 48 ci HPA tank, then you are shooting high pressure air at 1850 psi, with a high flow valve. Since CO2 vaporizes from a liquid into a gas at 1600 psi, at a temperature of 70 degrees F (I believe that’s right), then you have gained 250 psi for your pellets, and they should give better velocity and penetration.
All this assumes you are now using HPA instead of liquid CO2. If you are still using CO2…then something it ain’t right.
Hoot 😯
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hoot,
for some of us this IS a porn site… 😛 😯 😛