Silencer conviction overturned
Remember the guy convicted of having an airgun silencer capable of being used as a firearm silencer. It was overturned…
http://www.leagle.com/unsecure/page.htm?shortname=infco20100618081
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Your describing a police dictatorship… And we are different than Mexico how?
Oh yeah, we don’t revolt… 🙄
Synopsys,
No they don’t have the prison bed space, but they are working on it.
A good way to view the different Federal Districts and their descisions, is like the different state courts. Just because California rules that let’s say Medical Marijuana is legal in their state, it is not binding on Washington and Oregon.
It works the same way with Federal appeals courts. It is not until it gets to the US Supreme court that it is binding in all jurisdictions. So if the 9th Circuit Court of appeals says that the Med Marijuana is lega in a three state area or how many ever they cover, folks in Montana will still get busted by DEA for medical Marijuana.
While it is good news, and I know most of you know the above information, there are some of you that do not.
And it will not matter if your a felon or not. If Someone gets a shot off with his backyard friendly Condor and hits a cat or a child, even accidently, and the Media picks up on it, you will be charged. That is the way it is in the real world, the media fuels this stuff.
Then you sit in the closest US courthouse, guarded by the US Marshalls until your released on bail or tried, and Federal cases take years to be heard, and they out spend you.
Like Riverside said, they print the money.
Until it is heard by the Supreme Court, and BATF will avoid that at all costs, a permantly attached device on a air rifle is the best option.
You just have to realize that fairness and logic do not apply with the DOJ, it simply is not a factor.
Roachcreek
thats the devil Syn…
Suppressors in and of themselves are regulated as firearms and so are their individual internal components
you dont need a firearm to be convicted on this crap but the key item is the rule of intent
most of us have a few CP violations around our homes
Distructive Devices, Meth lab or Suppressors
the prosecutor must show intent to use these things in an illegal fashion
good example is a parts set for a STEN SMg
no problem on its own but possessed in nexus with a blank chunk of pipe they can prosecute it out as constructive possession of an unregistered automatic weapon
same with have a few M16 internals in your AR15
for the most part they dont go hog wild on these things unless they really want you or perhaps your property
So anyone with half a brain and two hands and simple household items can be found guilty of constructive possession of just about any illegal item?
How can he be found guilty of CP if he didn’t even have a firearm to stick it on?
That’s like getting a speeding ticket without owning or using a motor vehicle… 😕 I guess that is where they hide pertinent information to help their case and fuck over the citizen.
One thing I have to give the Rats props for is not just trying to throw everyone in jail on trumped up charges… Guess they don’t have any money invested in the prison systems… 😆 🙄
KM: How did I put you down?
only stated we differ on politics, it’s not as tho I called you anything
if thats not paranoid I sure as shit don’t know what the hell is.
As far as what you define yourself as…whatever
I know folks who claim to be Liberatarian that are in favor of the Drug War and Gun Registration
Just words man, just words…
then again that my opinion…you are free to differ
sure its easy to be wrong and admit it but the problem is so many good folks have is this notion of, lets call it subservience to office. We saw that yesterday when Republicans and Democrats alike joined hands to praise their Dark Prince for forcing McCristol into resignation for not respecting the office of the President…heck fuckers still flag wave over Lincoln and FDR despite all the patently unconstitutional executive orders they issued during their respective reigns of terror.
I’m not wired that way, I’ll call a spade a spade…president or police, its not the office, its the individual that makes or breaks whether they get my respect. Not handed out just because they happen to have a particular job my friend.
As far as the AG moderator thing I keep showing where BATF stood in the past on them. Here is the truth…personal comments from field officers do not have ANY value in court what so ever. The only thing that may have some value is a written decision from Firearms & Technology branch which to the best of my knowledge does not exist yet describing a lawful non regulated AG moderator
all they have said is what can not be sold without NFA regulation and based upon that its my reading that anything detachable will be seen as readily convertible particularly if the owner also happens to possess firearms. Crooker didn’t so the intent issue was never proven. Thats the only reason why his conviction was reversed.
Now this is great if you only own AGs
but if you possess firearms as well…you get the picture
this is not Paranoia…this is taking the rose colored glasses off and being honest about the potential legal ramifications of the matter
hate to point it out again but you were the one who started the name calling way back in the Arizona thread.
Frankly I don’t give a shit if you or anyone else want’s to follow their own intuition on this whole matter of AG suppression. I have NEVER stated its illegal across the board. Only thing I stated is what was verbally stated to me by Ed Owens former head of FTB, that to be non regulated they must be of an integrated design
You think some Field Agents opinion over rules that
Go for it
Some folks here are willing to go the extra mile to be lawful just in case and thats what I am about. Walt is spot on the right track with his permenently installed frame extensions. Couple that with a permenently attached core on your barrel it will prove extremely hard for the authorities to conclude constructive possession…
thats my opinion and the opinion of several Class II suppressor manufacturers
don’t like it?
Fine
I agree the odds of getting hemmed up are slim but again some of us are willing to try to remain inside the regulations if at all possible
and no, not some bitter old retiree 😉
Yep, WOK and I told ya so! 😆 😉
What the hell RS, I haven’t opened my mouth here and already your putting me down.
My problem with you is NOT Political. Not at all. My problem with you is you absolute know it all attitude. The same problem I have with the far left whaco. You are well read and intelligent. It is the conclusion’s you come to on a regular basis that I disagree with. And not so much even that. It is your self centered attitude that if you reach any conclusion at all, it is the only one. Period. If any one should come to different conclusion, you run them down and start name calling.
It doesn’t make some one stupid just because they don’t follow you like the Messiah. You aren’t God, nor are you infallible. Self righteous on the other hand, you have a real hand on.
I’m Right Wing Libertarian if it matters. I’ve Owned a Gun Store, (Not just sold at Gun Shows.) Studied the law for years. Set up at shows, both Gun and Knife shows for decades. I’ve sold may many guns. I have friends in the BATF. FBI. DOJ, Texas Rangers and more than a few Judges and attorneys. Yet you are the ONLY one here that knows a damed thing or has a right to an opinion. God forbid we make up our own mind with out your guidance! 👿 . Whats worse, you seem to be the one that isn’t stupid for voicing it. At least according to you.
I would just about bet that you are retired. Too much idle time. Too self importance stored up with out a damed thing to do with it. 😆
I ask you this. Have you ever once admitted you might be wrong? Or just full if your self? Just asking.
All in all, I think I’m with Wok on this one and that Riverside is being a bit paranoid. That said (and I really don’t mean to insult), can anyone show a case where someone not a felon and not involved in other criminal activity has ever been prosecuted for having an airgun sillencer that might be fitted to a PB somehow?
I think Wok was trying to say “play safe; buy a legally silenced airgun”.
of course WOK
that said its the nature of constructive possession that will be the nexus of a non reversible conviction
they lacked the ability to show intent as the defendant possessed ONLY airguns
would have been another matter if he had Firearms in his possession, felon or not.
I too think folks really need to read this reversal and understand exactly why it was reversed
as I said its a good decision for that district but the case was flawed to begin with
We have nothing to do with illegal activities of a silencers use on firearms.
Airguns are our concern and the legal use of moderators designed and used only on airguns.
People can read the reversal for themselves and review all of the airguns which are sold with moderators. BTW most of those are not permanent and can and are removed in minutes.
Then they can decide what that want to do.
Sure they can be modified or put on firearms which is illegal. But then again I can turn my talon into a firearm rather easily as well. That does not make my talon illegal as an airgun.
We are only concerned with the legal use of airguns.
factory installs of a permenent nature are not the issue WOK
its the aftermarket cans that have long been occasional Fed targets going back to the 1970s ban on the import of Parker Hale AG moderators which when coupled with one of DAQs adapters were rather effective on .22RF handguns and rifles.
I suggest people review all the airguns being legally sold in the USA with moderators in the “Moderator and Shroud” Forum. Start with file 1 and work you way to file 5.
Well written… I think this comes back to “letter of the law” vs “spirit of the law”. If you’re a bad guy shipping nitric acid via USPS then they will throw the letter at you. If you’re joe public shooting an airgun then you’re acting in the spirit of the law, i.e. using an LDC on an airgun only.
BUT… ignorance of the law is no defense… knowing what it says and choosing your path with full awareness is the best approach.
No doubt about it, this was a good ruling and can’t hurt. I have a very good friend who has a good friend in the ATF (he is an ATF agent) and he told him “don’t worry about airgun shrouds & suppressors”. He actually laughed when he was asked the question. I have a friend in Homeland Security and asked him to look into the “silencer” on airguns thing. He works regularly with the ATF regarding explosive chemicals, etc. He came back and said don’t worry about, you ‘re safe in those exact words and gave me other details, but you all know them.
However I am still cautious, and do NOT take my shrouded Condors to the woods or State Land. I always take my Springers. If one day I take my Condors to the field, I will remove the shroud because NY State Dept. of Environment Concervation (DEC) that regulates hunting, has a state law that specifically states NO hunting is allowed with a muzzled or silenced gun. They also have a law that very explicitely says airguns are firearms when used for hunting. You may have the same law in your state, so be careful.
Reading through the court’s decision or the defense’s arguement, it is very scary to think that they can prosecute you for just having knowledge that an object can be used to suppress firearms as well. What stops them for prosecuting someone because he cut a hole in a soda bottle, or has a potato in their possession with a hole through the middle (or not?). Reading through that gave me shivers. That is so rediculous. They interpret the law in any way they see fit to help their case. That is the nature of prosecutors and defense lawyers as well. That is why there are lawyers. Very few things are “black & white”.
I wholeheartedly agree with those here that wrote that they prosecuted this guy because he was a felon and was caught shipping chemicals illegally, plus the explosives (they don’t give specifics) in his house, etc. They would not normally go through such lengths for someone who just has a couple of speeding tickets.. or no history of criminal offenses, or multiple misdemeanors, etc., but then again you never know. This is why you have to remain cautious and apprehensive of your actions at all times. When I see a Supreme Court decision in our favor, then I will parade with my shrouded Condors down main street… sort of speak 🙂
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wouldn’t go so far as to call it a Police Dictatorship
at least not yet…
this notion that you are safe to press grey areas of the NFA if you are not a felon is extremely dangerous. I previously related and linked the story of Gary “LAWCOP” Thuinck who was a City Atty. in rural MI and who was indicted, prosecuted & convicted along with the County Atty and local Chief of Police for what amounted to technical violations of the NFA. I didn’t like Gary one bit & even warned him of the legal dangers involved in using office to side step the NFA but his attitude was that as LE they were never going to screw with him
He is now in Federal Prison with the rest of his pals.
Did they deserve to go to prison? Not in my opinion, ATFE should have just seized the guns and suppressors and scared the shit out of them. These were not bad men, fuck they were LEOs who liked to play with NFA.
As far as the list of AGs currently sold in the US with moderators
I realize this is hard to for many folks to grasp on to but just because something is being sold even widely on the open market in no way makes it legal with ATFE…
I can offer dozens of examples over the past several decades regarding this…
IF an AF shroud goes to FTB all they will do is wrap some duct tape around the barrel of a test fixture, align the shroud and touch off one round. If the report is reduced by one decible they will determine that its a regulated device
what will determine “intent” to constructivly possess will be whether the owner of the device also owns a .22 firearm.
The other issue is that the master list here is all AGs that have units installed by the manufacturer mostly secured in place by locktite or another adhesive compound. As the bits are being installed by an AG producer it is obvious as what the intent is.
It changes tho when you have the units removed and worse yet held in nexus with regulated firearms
this is complex shit, its not straight black and white
I want everyone here in a legally safe spot if at all possible
as far as this being a police state, well its been this way for decades
are you familiar with the parable of how you boil a frog?
if you toss Mr. Froggy in Boiling water he jumps right out
what you do is place him in a pot of nice cool water then slowly raise the heat
Mr Froggy will just sit there until its far too late
Its not too late yet, we are only at medium heat
take a few more years to achieve full rolling boil.