What is MOA?
When talking about air guns what exactly does MOA stand for or when used as ….
” sub MOA”
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Lama,
Yeah its pretty cool. and I really lucked into it, I have around $800.00 in it after having the turrents put on. Holland wants around $1250.00 for that scope and Leupold only installs the reticle for him exclusively.
I figure with the 257 Haley, I can sight in at 90 yards, have only around 2 to 3 inches rise to 90 yards and still have moa to hold on out to 250 yards.
And for a air gun that is doing something.
First Mildot scope I had was I believe a M8 Leupold on a SAR 25 I bought in the early 90’s. Nice set up very accurate with Federal match, which was all I ever fed it, accurate like 3 for 3 at 1100 yards on a pepper popper on my 1100 yard range.
The next mildot was on the Sharps Borschardt I have posted about on this forum, it was a 6 power 7/8 inch scope 23 inches long hand made by Montana Vintage armory contained in recoil sliding mounts, another cool set up. It is still the most expensive scope I have ever bought, around a grand in 2003 dollars. I only used the Mildots on the MVA for windage as I had enough adjustment to dial into 1000 yards with the vernier scale adjustable mounts. I gave that rifle to my son when he got back from Iraq.
But those were dedicated 1000 yard rifles, for air guns it is different.
Now the reason I prefer the Holland reticle over the mildot on airguns, is we have some pretty loopy trajectories, and those mildots are way too far apart so we have to do a lot of guessing at ranges over 70 yards. Unless our rifles hit on one of those 4 mildots, we have to aim between them out to around 100 yards.
Now on airguns, we’re really not going to measure distances with mildots, we use them for hold over and for holdover a slightly busier reticle is a plus.
Hawke has some good air gun reticles, SR 12 and 6 but they are in a dubious quality and way to heavy glass, but I still feel they have the mil dot beat for air gun use.
I think the main reason mildots are so popular with air gunners is they for a large part are row boat admirals who want to play make believe sniper, I mean really 💡
But then I don’t have a lot of use for 24 power chinese target scopes and elastic cartridge holders on hunting air gun stocks.
Just my jaded opinion.
RC
MVA mildt scope on 45/100 Sharps Borschardt
Roach, I agree, I have a leupold rangefinder I use. Plus the range I shoot on is all known distances, so no need to measure anyway. But again the mil vs moa is the same. Just as you measure and look at how many MOA you need to adjust or hold, I measure and do the same with mils. Same results, different path.
That holland reticle is pretty cool, got to play with a S&B with one. Lots of hold points for sure. Only problem for me (minus the huge price jump) was that it was a bit too crowded for me. Don’t like so much going on in my scope. Other than that though, definitely awesome.
I hear that Lama. Yeah, I’d like to get some high end glass some day and I also have been considering that Holland reticle Charlie loves so much. I certainly can appreciate how much more practical it is to have them match up.
Charlie, I have a rangefinder (not as good as yours 😡 just a measly Nikon) and when I had a “varmint” problem on my property it served me well for the longer shots that I wasn’t too sure about (I pretty much knew the 20 to 40 yard distances by eye and habit but the 50 to 80 were unfamiliar and the rf was great, especially considering most “varmints” won’t give you too much time to calculate….. I like knowing the mildot method as a tried and true back up just in case were hit by an EMP and the zombie hoard is fast approaching 😛 Ah, if only I had an FFP so I can get some accurate estimations on higher magnifications.
I just use the 3 shot method
Yeah not to practical when the other side is shootin back though
however, give me 3 shots and the target is dead
it would be nice and I am gonna start getting into the whole sniper
way, prob with me is, city boy and only get to shoot
PB’s 4 or 5 times a year, just the way it is
I envy all the TAG men that live in the boonies
SAW
80, definitely no sniper here but I appreciate the comparison. 😉
Really though, MOA and MIL, while different, are both simply measurements. Measure a line, it doesn’t matter if you measure the line with inches or centimeters, the line is the same, it’s just a matter of preference on how you label it. Shooting is the same way. My .300wm drops 124″ at 750 yards. Whether I adjust up 4.6 MILS or 16 MOA, it comes out to the same thing, and the bullet lands in the same place, it’s just a different way of getting there. So what does a sniper do? He will use what he has. Snipers are issued rifles with scopes (I’m not 100% sure what scope they use now) but they learn to use that. Us that shoot long range as a hobby get to choose, so we get whatever we want. I prefer mil/mil, but I only have one scope that has that. My other two have MOA turrets, so I am capable of using those too.
Basically it’s best to learn both. Can’t hurt to know too much right? But once you learn both, figure out what you like best and just use that.
I do believe firmly in matching turrets and reticle though, makes life much easier. So if you do like MOA better than MILs, go find you a scope with a MOA reticle. Hard to do, but they are out there. Once you have matching adjustments and reticles, you’ll never go back. Life is just easier. 🙂
PS, centimeters are a communist plot to take over America.
Well I guess I am the odd man out.
I used to like Mildots, I still have a couple 3200’s with them, but I only use them for hold over.
After a lifetime of long range shooting with Sharps rifles at 1000 yards and 300 mags at 1000 yards, and game animals at all ranges, my way to judge range is a Swarovski rangefinder.
Mill dot estimation is nice tgo have and to know, but it takes a dam long time friends and it is not really precise.
They may be just the ticket for military work, but few of us are going to use them for what they were intended for, which is killing men. And being as most of us will only use long range estimation and hold over at normal hunting applications, I think a rangefinder is a much better tool, especially for wary game animals
So what I use for that intended purpose is the Swarovsk RF1 to get the exact range, then use my Hollands reticle, which is very nice MOA reticle in a 30 MM Leupold VX111 scope, it can be had in higher end scopes as well, that gives me MOA in 1.5 MOA intervals.
In that application MOA is so much more precise and faster than doing the math.
So to rehash it, I push a button get the range, compare it against a chart on my scope giving ranges and MOA holdover, then put the corresponding MOA mark on it, adjust for wind, my side reticle lines are in fact mildot for windage, and hit send.
Takes about as long as it did to read this.
So for me MOA is not outdated or replaced by mildots.
Regards,
Roachcreek
I will say though, I think MOA is slowly being phased out for mils. Most high end scopes are coming in mil/mil configurations. It’s extremely hard to find a MOA reticle, but mil-dot are everywhere. It will be a while, and moa knobs are still prevalent, but I think eventually mil will take over and that’s what we’ll use. They really are easier, when you get to it. The math:
1 Moa = 1.047″ at 100 yards so every adjustment of 1/4 moa is .26”
1 Mil = 10 cm at 100 meters so every adjustment is 1cm
Sure, I don’t think it metric terms easier, but if you can think like that for shooting, and you use mils, life becomes much easier. Not to mention when you start adjusting. If you say, “I need 3 mils of elevation to hit this target” and you have a mil/mil scope, you can either adjust 3 on the knob or hold over 3 on the reticle. No need to think about the difference in the knob and the reticle.
I didn’t use mils either, but I got that new scope and it is in mil/mil and my mind was immediately changed. 😀
Funny you would mention this Lama as I was just looking at this very debate. Most of us have mil dot reticles with moa turrets. Most of us old folk are “conditioned” to think in minutes. I personally like mil dot scopes for range estimating and I try to stick to one method and repeat this method whenever I can so it can become “second nature” if under “pressure”. I don’t shoot PB’s so I really can’t apply what I know (only in theory), but I retain the spirit from my short time in the marines and If the SHTF someday in the near future I am glad I at least have some knowledge of LR shooting (theoretical). I wonder, and maybe you can answer this, if a sniper prefers one system over another (especially if he is conditioned and used to one…) will he be allowed to use this or will he have to adapt to the mil/mil platform? I suppose it would be good to know them all if one had the time and aptitude for it.
One thing is certain, if the SHTF I personally would like to have a scope/reticle that would afford me 100 to 1000 yards on reticle alone. If and when my life depended on it, I’d prefer hold over and under over turret cranking any time of the day. Unless of course I find myself behind the trigger of a .339, .416, or .50 some day…in that case I’ll need a bit more elevation than any reticle can afford 🙂
p.s. what’s a centimeter? 😆
The “.047″ argument will go on forever. For those of us that shoot long range, it comes out to nearly .5″ when shooting at 1000 yards. Does that matter? Maybe to some. But for me that .5″ doesn’t usually mean the difference between a hit and a miss.
I will say though, I think MOA is slowly being phased out for mils. Most high end scopes are coming in mil/mil configurations. It’s extremely hard to find a MOA reticle, but mil-dot are everywhere. It will be a while, and moa knobs are still prevalent, but I think eventually mil will take over and that’s what we’ll use. They really are easier, when you get to it. The math:
1 Moa = 1.047″ at 100 yards so every adjustment of 1/4 moa is .26”
1 Mil = 10 cm at 100 meters so every adjustment is 1cm
Sure, I don’t think it metric terms easier, but if you can think like that for shooting, and you use mils, life becomes much easier. Not to mention when you start adjusting. If you say, “I need 3 mils of elevation to hit this target” and you have a mil/mil scope, you can either adjust 3 on the knob or hold over 3 on the reticle. No need to think about the difference in the knob and the reticle.
I didn’t use mils either, but I got that new scope and it is in mil/mil and my mind was immediately changed. 😀
And to set the record straight, as Joe wrote, MOA is actually all shots within 1.047 center to center to center at each corresponding 100 yards, ie, 1.047 for 100 yards, 2.094 for 200 yards and so on.
It is just easier for us “unanals” to use the 1″ measurement.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Or if in prison and someone refers to MOA they are most likely speaking of Minute Of Anal
MOA= Minute Of Animal
My phone somehow sent the previous cache from when I turned it off and then later was going to finish my post and noticed Swype decided to help me incorrectly (as always), fixed the misspelling, but it still sent old cache…
Hey 80 and Rev,
For us uneducated, “good stuff”. 
:thumb:
Way above my pay grade 😕
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I say, just use what you’re used to and get an FFP scope.