52 grain cast 25 acp bullets in the Condor
I got my mold and some bullets that a member was nice enough to cast for me to try.
When I first talked to him about giving me some bullets to try, he asked if I had slugged my bore, and I had not. So I ran two Kings that I had tapped on to expand them into the bore, one all the way thru to check the choke and one just part way into it to check the bore.
He was taken back by the measurements, the choke was .251 and the bore was .253. He thought that was odd that the LW barrels differed that much and having bought my digital calipers from Harbor Freight I just assume my calipers were off.
I figured when I got the two sample packages of bullets, about 10 each he was sending, I would measure them, then compare those measurements to my calipers.
One thing we did not count on was that the barrel was from the latest batch and may differ from past barrels.
Well when I measured the bullets I recieved today, I found my measurements were correct, and my measurements matched the bullets that he sent. .2495 and .2505. When I chambered the bullets, they slid into the barrel lead easily and went another .25 inch further.
I shot the .2505 bullets and did get one group that was .80, but had to fire 7 shots to get a 5 shot group that was .80. The .2495 bullets just sprayed at 36 yards.
Now I have a unusual shooting bench at my 36 yard range, it is off the top of a 1958 Mercedes in the garage and I use no bags, just my hands to rest on, so sometimes my groups suffer.
I then decided to try the mold and see if I could cast some bullets that would be larger, now I might add I had no way of sizing these bullets when I cast them, other than tweaking alloy or varying the heat, cold alloy usually reduces the bullet diameter.
So I cast some bullets up at 750 to 800 degrees. I started with 40-1 lead to tin because that was what was in my pot. I went thru the ones I could find that were in the .2545 to 255 range,these were too large, but I lubed them with break free and forced them gently into the lead with a flat side of a end wrench.
They shot 1.5 to 3 inches at 36 yards.
So then I reduced the heat to 700 degrees to try and make them a smaller diameter and cast some more, they came out at .253 to .254. THis is usually not a way to cast accurate bullets, but it does make them smaller.
I waited until they cooled, which with these tiny slugs does not take long, then I hand rubbed Johnsons Paste wax on them for lube, this is what I use on my .452 bullets I use in my 45 Ranger and it has stopped the leading problem I was having in that rifle.
The Johnson Paste Wax lubed bullets, that cast out to .253 to.254 could be pushed into the lead flush with considerable thumb pressure, but they were in fact working.
The first group I shot was around 1.5 inches, nothing special, but I did not expect them to group right away, it takes 5 or 6 bullets to get the wax into the barrel.
The next group put 4 shots into one hole and a 5th shot took it to .65. The group after that went into .65 also.
Velocity is 877 to 925, I fill to 3200 PSI, the PW is maxed out and I have a Condor spring, hammer and hammer weight, and a RLAirguns valve stem, Top hat is at .85 this gives me somewhere around 15 shots before I drop into the 860 FPS range.
I need to stress these are not good quality cast bullets that I am shooting right now. The mold is new, and there are a lot of wrinkles. I get 3 or 4 shots into one hole and then a flyer that I know is due to a mold not warmed to the right temperture and being new.
I have a lot of work to do on this and I need to have a sizer die made, it is looking like it needs to be .2525 to .253
Much thanks to the member here who cast me up some slugs and sent them off to me to try and also check my caliper, I owe you big time.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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Thanks Tagdagger.
THere is a Lyman 252 mold for the 25 acp on Ebay starting bid is 30.00 it is used but would be a cheap way to get into the 25 business.
Regards,
Roachcreek
WOW! Thats a good haul RC. Brings back good memories of when I used to run a trap line as a boy. $10.00 for a muskrat, $25.00 for a coon, $40.00 for a fox and $80.00 for a Bobcat. That was a lot of money for a young boy back in the early 80s before the Tree hugers and Rat kissers ruined the fur market 👿
Tag,
One of the things I like about this projectile is how flat it shoots and how it retains energy.
When I plug the bullet into Handloads.com at 930 FPS, and compare that to the 25 King on Chairgun with both having a 100 yard zero, just to compare trajectory heights, I have to push the King to 1150 to get the same trajectory that I get with the 52 grain bullet.
The King of course would become uncunted and loose all accuracy at that velocity and still only deliver 3/4 of the energy at the muzzle and 2/3 of the energy of the 25 acp projectiles 78 fpe at 100 yards.
With a 70 yard zero it has a trajectory path, or a point blank based on 3″, of less than 3 inches out to 80 yards, meaning it is 1.4 inches high and 1.4 inches low during its flight path.
Another sweet feature is I can just change the PW from maxed out to 8/1 and have my accurate setting for Kings back.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Well today I am starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel.
I cast up nearly 200, 40-1 bullets today and ended up with 140+ after culling paying specific attention to bad bases.
I moly lubed them and set them to the side to dry.
When dry I shot 5, 5 shot groups straight that were averaging .90, without the crazy wide eratic shots showing up.
This was at 36 yards.
I read that LBT site again and decided to measure my bore again, and lubed one of the bullets that was moly lubed up with Breakfree and pushed it thru the bore.
I was amased my how easy it slid down the bore, which measured .254 to .2545. The bullet also slid into the chamber much easier. So then I got an idea, I will shoot some of these bullets that are double lubed with breakfree and moly.
I shot 50 or so shots, some were 6 and 7 shot groups all grouped into 9, 5 to 7 shot groups with the average of .80 at 36 yards.
I would love to be doing this at 100 yards, but for now if it does not get any better, I have a coyote calling load.
The power with a 2700 PSI fill gives me 10 shots in the 900 to 935 FPS. I need to determine where the pressure is at exactly 900 FPS level because I will not shoot more than once or twice at a stand.
Which brings up another subject, shooting coyotes.
I have killed hundreds of them, and many with a silenced 22 Ruger that was just a little less powerful than this load. People ask where to shoot coyotes, and all these backyard Safari Masters always say headshots.
Yeah that will kill them alright, wound a lot more if you shoot low because you miss judged the range.
I always shot them in the shoulder with anything I used, especially a 22 rimmer. A coyote with a 22 caliber hole in his lungs will run a little ways, but he will not survive.
Yeah I know no pictures it didn’t happen, so I will show my coyote clothesline again. The full picture had 65 dogs on it. All 65 were in prime fur shot between October 15 and January 15, the only time the fur is in prime.
Regards,
Roachcreek
LBT molds are twice the money, but probably over twice the quality.
And you can order it closer to the size needed.
I would think your barrel is probably from the new batch of barrels.
Regards,
Roachcreek
BC: .155
I get 850 fps with the 62 6-ring so maybe 875 @ 58 grain for about 100 FPE but still 83 FPE at 100 yards.
RC take a good look at these pictures . And LBT is twice the money at $125.00 but .Marvin
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TL25657RF/chamber/chamber01.jpg
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TL25657RF/bullet/sketch.jpg
I got that barrel by itself from Randy at R&L about the beginning of June. It shoots real well with JSBs or Kodiaks.
Secoda,
Looks like your barrel is close to mine, if you discount about .005 for cheap Harbor Freight caliper error, at least in my case, we’re pretty close.
When did you buy that barrel, was it part of the new batch?
Marvin mikes barrels really close and his is much smaller.
I just coated my mold with mold prep and cast some bullets, they came out .2535 and .2525, again with error from the calipers. My calipers are digital and in my ignorance I suspect they are not as accurate as dial calipers.
I paid close attention to the base of my bullets under a good light, I have a lot of culls due to bases being out of round. Hopefully this last batch will fly better being somewhat smaller and culled closer.
Sure is easier for old men to see the culls on larger bullets.
I lubed them with moly and they are cast from 40-1.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Here is what I get and I did it twice. The first part of the barrel seems pretty consistent and smooth w/o tight spots until you get to the choke.
JSB King
Starting Barrel Choke
.2565 .2520 .2505
Brant,
You do in fact have two different diameters, the first is from the lead (breech) to about an inch or an inch and a half from the muzzle, the second, the last inch and a half, is the choke. You will feel a noticable tightness there when pushing a pellet thru.
So take a pellet and hit it gently with a hammer until you have to force it into the lead with considerable pressure, then push it down the bore for about 18 inches on a 24 inch barrel or 12 inches on a 18 inch barrel. Then put the cleaning rod in the muzzle and push it back out the breech. This will give you the measurement you need.
Mine was .253.5-.254 my choke was .251. If you wish to measure the choke make a second pellet up and push it all the way thru, this will give you the choke measurement.
Measure the pellet length wise, this will give you a true meaurement of the lead that had protruded down into the groves of the barrel when you pushed that oversized pellet thru.
I drop bullets out around .240-245 depending on the alloy. So as a result, I am having my Lee Prescision sizing die made to be .253, I can make it bigger by polishing it out, and I can make my mold drop bullets .001 smaller by coating it with mold release.
You are correct that you can in fact use your reloading press to size bullets, that is how the Lee P sizing die works. Lee charges $30.00 for the custom die and $5.00 shipping, they told me last week it was 3 to 6 weeks out.
Where you can get in trouble is if you have a tight spot before the muzzle. My first 25 LW barrel was tight at the breech for 4 inches, then opened up for 18 inches or so and then tightened up again at the choke.
It only shot Kings well, because the thin skirt allowed them to expand twice with the somewhat low air pressure PCP’s have.
So basically you want to size that bullet to near or exactly the same dimentions as the first 23 inches of barrel. On PB’s you would size it to that diameter or .001 over, but with a PB you have a larger lead in relation to the bore size and you have a bigger bump when the gun fires.
With Black Powder cartridges you have a very hard bump when they fire, so you can get by with a much smaller bullet in relation to the bore, this helped enormously during the 19th century when bore and chambers sizes varied due to manufacturing technology at the time, cartirdges could be made undersize to fit most rifles and hanguns, a practice the militarys around the world still use but for different reasons.
Regards,
Roachcreek
RC,
That sounds great and I would like to join in. I read that the LW barrels can vary unless you upgrade to the match ones but they are steeper. I will slug my barrel and see what I get. I just picked up a second digital dial caliber from Harbor Freight on their labor day sale yesterday but I will check it with my good one. I have reloaded for nearly 35 years but have never cast so I will leave that to you but I have a press for sizing, etc.
It would be great if our barrels are close enough though. How are you slugging the barrel given the choke? Doesn’t the final measurement represent the choke size?
Brant
Secoda,
Being old and senile, I do not get the jump on many people very often, but I did on this.
I signed up on Ranch Dog and have already put my name o the list, like two days ago. 😆
They state that it will be available early November.
Really an interesting bullet isn’t it? I checked with both of the sites Ranch Dog listed, but no reploy from the one and seeing that Carolina did not list that 25 caliber bullet, I did not ask them.
I doubt that there will be a lot of interest in the bullet, thus Carolina may never get up and running.
The problem faced here, is that these barrels are so different in size, and the bullets may need sizing for your specific barrel diameter. I have a Lee Prescision die ordered for mine which I think will work at .253, I can open that up some, but these dies are very hard and it is difficlult to do. The dies only cost $35.00 tho so it is not too bad.
Marvin tells me that you can order custom molds from another well known source for less than a $100.00 if the Ranch Dog mold does not become available.
Give me some time to get my die, and test these bullets, and to get that Ranch Dog mold, in the meantime slug your barrel, I did mine by “bumping up” a King and pushing it thru, make sure you have an accurate caliper to measure it.
Ranch Dogs mold is supposed to drop bullets from #2 I think it was at 256, this would be too big for barrels the size of what Marvin has, but would work with mine. If you size a bullet down too much, it will get off centered, or at least when I have tried to it did. The bullet I patterned my .452/408 form was a 462 I got from NEI, I used to shoot it in the Casull, and had to size it down to .452, it worked but not that well.
Now there is a big difference between .462/.452 and .256/.2495 but you have to consider the percentage of the bullet size we are looking at here.
I am not wanting to get in the custom bullet casting thing here, but would cast some for guys with bore sizes they might work in so they an see if they want to become casters.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Just an FYI if anyone has interest. Jerry from Carolina casting is the guy I contacted and he uses Ranch Dog’s molds. He also should be able to get that mold in a few months. He would be willling to make them to our specs including sizing, hardness, etc.
RC,
If you plan on selling a few I would be interested in that option as well.
“Brant,
Thank you for your interest in my bullets. I have been in contact with Ranch Dog Outdoors, who makes my molds. The 25 ACP mold I need is not in stock currently.
As to quantity, orders of over 500, several or more over a years time would allow me
to put that bullet into inventory and keep it available to you and other shooters needing
it.
What size do you make them? It is possible that if the sizing dies are available, I can
provide the bullets already sized/lubed to your needs.
Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets”
Brant,
My 25 ACP molds are not in inventory yet but once they are an outfit called “Carolina Cast” would be able to help you. Those molds are about 2 months out yet.
Michael “Ranch Dog” Reamy
Ranch Dog Outdoors
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Here is a 6 cav, .258 70 grain.dont see the .252
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Custom-25-Cal-6-Cavity-Bullet-Mold-/290607235173?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a98a8065
never mind i found it
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LYMAN-BULLET-MOULD-MOLD-25-CAL-252435-2-CAV-/390343628857?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae24b1839