52 grain cast 25 acp bullets in the Condor
I got my mold and some bullets that a member was nice enough to cast for me to try.
When I first talked to him about giving me some bullets to try, he asked if I had slugged my bore, and I had not. So I ran two Kings that I had tapped on to expand them into the bore, one all the way thru to check the choke and one just part way into it to check the bore.
He was taken back by the measurements, the choke was .251 and the bore was .253. He thought that was odd that the LW barrels differed that much and having bought my digital calipers from Harbor Freight I just assume my calipers were off.
I figured when I got the two sample packages of bullets, about 10 each he was sending, I would measure them, then compare those measurements to my calipers.
One thing we did not count on was that the barrel was from the latest batch and may differ from past barrels.
Well when I measured the bullets I recieved today, I found my measurements were correct, and my measurements matched the bullets that he sent. .2495 and .2505. When I chambered the bullets, they slid into the barrel lead easily and went another .25 inch further.
I shot the .2505 bullets and did get one group that was .80, but had to fire 7 shots to get a 5 shot group that was .80. The .2495 bullets just sprayed at 36 yards.
Now I have a unusual shooting bench at my 36 yard range, it is off the top of a 1958 Mercedes in the garage and I use no bags, just my hands to rest on, so sometimes my groups suffer.
I then decided to try the mold and see if I could cast some bullets that would be larger, now I might add I had no way of sizing these bullets when I cast them, other than tweaking alloy or varying the heat, cold alloy usually reduces the bullet diameter.
So I cast some bullets up at 750 to 800 degrees. I started with 40-1 lead to tin because that was what was in my pot. I went thru the ones I could find that were in the .2545 to 255 range,these were too large, but I lubed them with break free and forced them gently into the lead with a flat side of a end wrench.
They shot 1.5 to 3 inches at 36 yards.
So then I reduced the heat to 700 degrees to try and make them a smaller diameter and cast some more, they came out at .253 to .254. THis is usually not a way to cast accurate bullets, but it does make them smaller.
I waited until they cooled, which with these tiny slugs does not take long, then I hand rubbed Johnsons Paste wax on them for lube, this is what I use on my .452 bullets I use in my 45 Ranger and it has stopped the leading problem I was having in that rifle.
The Johnson Paste Wax lubed bullets, that cast out to .253 to.254 could be pushed into the lead flush with considerable thumb pressure, but they were in fact working.
The first group I shot was around 1.5 inches, nothing special, but I did not expect them to group right away, it takes 5 or 6 bullets to get the wax into the barrel.
The next group put 4 shots into one hole and a 5th shot took it to .65. The group after that went into .65 also.
Velocity is 877 to 925, I fill to 3200 PSI, the PW is maxed out and I have a Condor spring, hammer and hammer weight, and a RLAirguns valve stem, Top hat is at .85 this gives me somewhere around 15 shots before I drop into the 860 FPS range.
I need to stress these are not good quality cast bullets that I am shooting right now. The mold is new, and there are a lot of wrinkles. I get 3 or 4 shots into one hole and then a flyer that I know is due to a mold not warmed to the right temperture and being new.
I have a lot of work to do on this and I need to have a sizer die made, it is looking like it needs to be .2525 to .253
Much thanks to the member here who cast me up some slugs and sent them off to me to try and also check my caliper, I owe you big time.
Regards,
Roachcreek
All Replies
Before we go too far down the road, let’s make sure we are not re inventing the wheel. Surely the casting and sizing is critical, but not as critical as proof of accuracy.
Look at a 43.2 gr Eunjun and a 60.2 gr 6 ring Jerry Slug. They are both accurate BUT they are extremely different.
The Eunjun stabiilzes by having a forward center of gravity due to it’s hollow tail.
The Jerry Slug stabilzies by having length and center of gravity in the center, but artificially forward in the air flow elipse.
The 25 ACP is neither nose heavy nor does it create an air flow elipse that significantly moves the center gravity forward, EXCEPT at great enough airspeed.
The 25 ACP was designed to be the smallest centerfire handgun round a long time ago, when throwing lead was more important than accuracy.
I finally located a small commercial bullet caster that might be willing to cast .25 ACP bullets based on our specifications/requirements if we would order enough over time to make it worth his while. I asked him for an estimate on bulk pricing. If the pricing is decent I will post a poll to see if anyone else is interested.
Do you guys with casting experience think this is a viable option for us non-casters? Can we have him cast a single spec bullet that we all can resize to our particular requirements or does this not make sense? I already mentioned the hardness spec that Marvin is using and that didn’t seem an issue. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks……
Eric is the shit. Good to see your guys using him. Like that FP on those bullets RC. Nice going
Well do not forget that LBT is still doing .25 . That is were my 30 grain mold came from . I thought about having him do a 55 grainer but my old Lyman was a proven mold to me and this one is very close to it . I might add that the shank on this bullet just slides on the lands in my rifles . Which takes away the need of another band . I know you seem to have a bigger bore barrel but I thought I might throw that in . Marvin
Marvin,
That is very interesting.
I suspected that is how he did it.
I suppose he could also do one side a HP and one side a swc.
That way you would be dealing with one cavity for accuracy.
Regards,
Roachcreek
In stead on a point that goes into the inside of the mold cavity it is just a blunt end bar . Do not know if he has really done one but said he could for me in the past .Marvin
Marvin,
I called Lee and they said they are 3 to 4 weeks out now on those dies. I called the next day just to make sure they had the right size written down.
How does Eric do the flat point? I would like another band and a flat point myself. I sent him my Accruate mold to true up and he did a good job.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Thanks for the info . Magna molds said in a mouth or so they will be ready to make custom molds . They are cnc and able to do 25 caliber . I have thought about sending my Lyman mold to Eric and having him make a 40-45 grain flat nose out of it . But it does have a little ware on a pin hole . I did adjust the pins and there is no play in the mold now . Don’t know thought about selling it as well .
I know you will work out the problem you are having . The size could be the big culprit now . I went through it with mine last year . Waited 5 months to get a sizer from Lee . Then it was the wrong size when I got it . Sent it back . Bought a .243 believe it or not and took it out to .2495 . And I hope I never have to go that far again and I mean never . And I do not recommend that any one else do it . But it all came together in the end . By the way I then ordered a .250 from Lee and it came back to me a .2505 LOL .Marvin
Marvin,
Nothing Hi-tech, I just trimmed 5 grains off the nose. I did it with a 1/4″ 3/8 drive socket for a bullet holder and then filed off the nose with a flat bastard file.
Makes nice looking bullets but it appears that it also gives a slight warp to the bullet, accuracy is dismal.
But I have to say, I think the entire SWC idea does have promise. I think a better approach would to be to drill a 1/4 inch hole in a plate and use that for a holder
You are of course familiar with that custom Lee mold that throws the 25 caliber bullets at .256. Ranchdog or someone with a similiar name designed it. I do not know Lees policy on cutting a mold from somebody elses desgin, but if I could get one in 253 without paying thst $150.00 set up fee I would be delighted.
I wonder if I could size that bullet down to .253 from 256 and not mess it up?
Another option could be to have a mini 25 caliber hollow base mold made in a mini ball design.
You might also have better luck since your using harder sized bullets, that might prevent the warping.
BTW I have found that firing a group of 7 shots with Kings, it takes two to get the POI back and then the next 5 go into a tight group and appears to clean the barrel. This might also mean my fouling is wax rather than leading.
Lots of work to do yet.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Talk to me about your experiment . I have been looking at my old Lyman mold . Marvin
Libertyman,
Midway has them for $115.00 for a RCBS mold, order soon, they never have them for any length of time..
There is a Lyman used one on the AA for 90.00, but it is a used mold.
You will need to slug your barrel once you get it and then order a sizing die custom made from Lee Prescision, I just use the portable hand press they sell to size bullets.
The SWC bullets in my last post are a experiment I am working on, no special equipment needed to make them , but it should increase the killing power dramatically.
Regards,
Roachcreek
💡 😆
Regards,
Roachcreek
Where can I get this mold? I’ll buy a .25 barrel for that alone.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Airgunner,
You do have a point.
Has it been done before, yes by many, but few in the last couple of years as PCP’s improve, Marvin has had sucess, and he has done it recently, remember things are getting more advanced in this field.
I get exceptional accuracy and very good power with this bullet, then all of it goes to shit. If I was shooting 3 shot groups and had this luck I would walk away, but I get that accuracy for 10 to 15 shots, so I am on to something here.
Not sure why, could be alloy, could be lube fouling. I would like to see another band on the bullet, but that is not do able.
I am waiting for the sizer before I get too excited. And when I do get it I will also cast one mold chamber at a time to see if it is a case of one being off somewhat.
Marvin does not have this trouble, but he has considerably more time in his than I have in mine. and has many more hours into air gun casting than I do.
Cleaning is an issue, if I scrub it with a brush or JB it will shoot very well for a few groups then get erratic. If I shoot Kings in it after it gets erratic, the first two sometimes three Kings are erratic, then it tightens up with the Kings.
If I go back to the acp bullet after shooting the Kings accurately, it will shoot well for a while. All this sounds like lube fouling. But right now without lube it is damn near impossible to chamber one, so I am jumping the gun so to speak by trying to shoot them before I size them.
Like you, I feel this bullet would do better shorter, I see two routes to that.
1. Have a flat point put on by Eric like Marvin says.
2. Buy the Ranch Dog mold when it is available this fall.
The Ranch Dog mold is a 56 grain Tumble lube bullet with a wide metplate. It has three grooves for lube and casts out at 56 grains/.256 with #2 alloy, that means it will cast out at slightly lighter and smaller with 20-1, which would be perfect for me.
It is also a 6 cavity mold, which to me means, if they shoot well, I could also sell a few to recoup the money in this experiment.
I think either option will work. Both would cost about the same, Eric’s work while good,. is not cheap when it comes to adding a HP or flat point
Sizing I think is going to be found to be very important, I notice different pressure effort when seating them with my thumbs, which means that I have two different sizes, and measurements do bear this out, so sizing will help.
Again whether the difference in size is due to alloy and mold temp or different dimensions in the casting chambers has yet to be determined, shit Ihave only had the mold one week. It has taken me two years to get this Condor fine tuned after all, and I shoot every day.
I am also tempted to index one of the chambers, which means scribing a mark somehow that will be cast into the bullet, that will allow me to index the bullet the same way into the chamber of the rifle the same way each time, therby reducing any flaws the bullet might have by having the process of seating and firing indexing the flaw to the same rotation each time.
I indexed my blackpowder carrtidges, cases, dies, bullets and sizing dies when I used them, it accounted for maybe 1/2 to 1 inch improvement at 200 yards for ten shot groups, hard to see but it was there, whether it was worth it shooting acrossed canyons where you could not read the wind swirling 200 feet above the surface of the earth is questionable.
Is it a pain in the ass? Sure tinkering can be fun as hell or a pain in the ass, depends on how you look at it. But I also get something I cannot get elsewhere if I make it work.
The bullet is a better shape, it should hit harder, fly straighter and above all, I made the damn thing myself.
I used to have a green house full of trophy racks in my house on the mountain, I had 200+ inch mule deer, a couple bear skulls, a 6 point bull a few antelope and a myrdad of 3×4 mulies. All of which my daughters BF now has as he carves them into jewelery, but the proudest trophy I had was a spike elk rack, and underneath that rack was sitting the bullet I shot it with, a 500 grain Lyman 457125 that I cast myself with my solar panels for energy and a lee electric pot, I called it my “solar bullet”
Hard to explain to some, but for folks like Marvin and I, it sort of says it all I guess.
Regards,
Roachcreek