Edgun R3 .22: Shot String, Air Efficiency, & Trigger
This will be a long post, sorry about that. Ran into the dive shop to fill up the scuba tank yesterday. The shop owner put on a pressure gauge to show me how much the tank was filled, because I was “hinting” at him that I could only fill the gun to 180 bars (~2610 psi) last time with a full tank. The tank was indeed filled to the maximum pressure around 3100 psi in this new fill. Interestingly, again, I only could fill the gun up to ~180 bars based on the gun gauge; but the gauge in the fill adaptor showed 3050 psi (~210 bars). It seems that the pressure of my Edgun was somewhat under measured by 440 psi or 30 bars. 🙄
I tested a shot-string using Combro Chronograph, which is a very small and handy chronograph installed at the end of the muzzle area. The starting pressure was 180 bar (based on Edgun gauge) and JSB Heavy (18.1 grains) was used. The first shot was low in speed (878 ft/sec), but the subsequent 35 shots were consistent with average 916.5±4.5 ft/sec (minimum 910 ft/sec and maximum 926 ft/sec). The regulator came off around 130 bars (I think) because of a little rise in speed for several shots and then the speed dropped to around 840 ft/sec for about 13 shots in parallel with pressure drop. The POI (at 30 yards) started to drop slightly (~0.2”) at shot #37 (or the regulator was off at this point?) The POI didn’t further drop until pressure went below 105 bars. I got 35 good shots consuming ~800 psi (from 180 bar to 125 bar) from a 289-cc air tube with average 33.8 foot-pound muzzle energy, which is about 13.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency of air usage. If using Zoco’s data – green-line shot string, 220 bar to 130 bar for 57 shots, ~32.5 fpe (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=520), I got the number 14 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency.
Based on the data from a shot-string of Royale 400 (without regulator; average 868 fps with 37 fps extreme spread) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1318702313/FX+Royale+400+.22+-+90+shot+string+with+chart-target), which consumed 0.94 bar/shot (220 to 135 bars for 90 shots) with ~30.3 fpe from a 400-cc bottle, the air efficiency is 12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb. Using another shot-string (http://airgunadvice.net/viewtopic.php?t=12183), from 220 bars to 179 bars with 36 shots (average 954 fps with 28 fps spread) at ~36.6 fpe, I got the same number (12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb) for air efficiency. Using the data from the FX Royale 400 review video of Ted in Youtube, average 33.53 fpe and 20 fps extreme spread with high power, I got 11.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency. If the medium power is used (884 fps with 31.4 fpe and 13 fps extreme spread), the efficiency will be higher at 9.6 bar-cc/ft-lb. It seems Royale is a little bit better than Matador R3 (standard length) in air efficiency without much sacrificing speed variation in the un-regulator gun.
I think Edgun can be optimized by adjusting the combination of regulator and power to reach max efficiency, but it will need a lot of trial. Or this is already at the optimal condition when Ed designed and set up the gun. What do you think?
p.s
I also installed a Harris bipod BRM-S model 6”-9” in late afternoon, and ran a few shots under high-gust wind (>20 miles/hr) before dark. It seems to improve the unstable sitting of the gun and increase the shooting accuracy. 😛 Will test more tomorrow if weather is good.
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Hey guys, I was just rereading the Cricket/EdGun review and there was mention of the loading area in the EdGuns being conical. The opening decreases so the o-rings on the probe fit tight at the end of the bolt travel but don’t have constant friction on them the whole way in…
I think it was page two where this is mentioned. Maybe page three. 😉
Here you go…
Well just some additional information about it. The loading tray is not cylinder, it is cone shape, it means that when the probe with two O-rings is moving back and forward, the O-rings don’t touch the tray itself, and at the very end of the movement, they touch it for few last mm. of the movement. So, if everything goes well, those O-rings can stay working for tens thousand shots and more.
Send it to me. I can sort out that regulator! 🙂
Tedd, I know you were teasing. I just love the Edgun philosophy and have to say it loud.
After smoothing out the internal of rear breech block and lubing the probe orings, the cocking action is much better and it is very smooth to close the probe bolt to the front breech without pellet loaded. The smoothness is comparable to my 22 standard. The “problem” is the difficulty of pushing/close the bolt when loading a pellet. I experience a high resistance when the probe o-rings just reaching the front breach block with a pellet in front. A lot of effort is needed to pass last 0.5” into the breech. Dvdrw confirms that. Jdr’s video is an excellent example, showing the “problem” of loading a pellet. Is the breech end of the barrel chocked, as indicated by Gabe? This is odd.
Tedd, thanks for the thought of offering the pellets. I got a tin of JSB from my buddy, exchanging with a dinner in a nice restaurant. This will cost me at least $50. You know, this is just like getting a Edgun — demand and supply.
Dvdrw, this is an odd string, seeing this first time. So, here is the first string of my new gun with a new valve and new breech. Just like Dvdrw’s gun, I shot the gun two days ago with 4-5 pellets and the speed was about 970-980 fps. I adjusted HST (I think it was about 1 turn out, I don’t remember) to around 870-880 fps. I did a full string this afternoon before dark. Here is the graph. The gun was filled to 200 bars. The pressure dropped quickly in first 5 shots (high slope), then gradually taper off in next 15 shots. Then a consistent fall in pressure with a much smaller slope at subsequent shots. The last 15 shots had the smallest slope. The end pressure is 108 bars after shot #80. The air efficiency is 10.32 cc-bar/ft-lb overall (without last 2 shots), comparing 11.5 to 12 cc-bar/ft-lb in my tuned .22 standard. So, the new valve is more efficient in this regard. As you can see, the string is not smooth with a few large jumps/drops but maintained around 865 fps before shot #50, then started with a big hike up after that (about 30-35 fps increase in speed), ended with a nosedive after shot #75. This sharp-drop is very similar to what Dvdrw had seen in his gun at the end of the string (see post above). This abrupt drop is different from my .22 standard, which has a gradually fall in speed (see my earlier posts). It seems to me, from jdr, dvdrw, Mike and my string, there is a tendency of having a few big jumps/drops in speed within a full string. The behavior of this new valve is odd. We need more data to make any conclusion.
With tuning both regulator and HST, I think there is a potential to get 75 regulated shots from this gun with end-pressure around 110 bars, starting from 200 bars…. I hope.
Mike, welcome to join the Edgun club. It is a very nice string from a stock Edgun. I believe it will smooth out more after a few tins.
Endo
It looks like the pellet is entering the breech end of the barrel with a lot of resistance. Maybe the breech end is choked or it might just be that the barrel was assembled wrong. From the videos on the youtube and my R3, both ends of the barrel are threaded. The muzzle end for the baffle assembly and the breech end for the breech block/transfer port. Just an idea to consider.
Gabe G.
Best I can do for demoing the bolt pressure needed when inserting a pellet.
You can see that it closes with no pellet quite easily as well as once a pellet is seated.
Hopefully there isn’t any change to the pellet which might effect accuracy.
http://s119.beta.photobucket.com/user/jdr724/media/CIMG0017_zps6ba66bb2.mp4.html
I got my new .22 R3 Standard. Thank you Tony and Ed. Here is the shot string data out of the box. 80 shots from 200 to 100 BAR.
Good 65 shots regulated.
That string of shots from a regged gun?
Needs work.
I’ve started some tuning and am contemplating my next adjustment move.
I can confirm that closing the bolt is a bit hard for the last half inch or so. I also blame the pellet as when I close the bolt without a pellet inside it runs pretty smooth.
Ok, so I got my new .25 R3. First 5 shots through the chrony showed 981 985 987 983 985.
I didn’t bother anymore and I unscrewed HTS 1 full turn and this is what I got :
A slight increase in velocity along the string and a full drop at 120BAR.
I unscrewed again the HTS, about 1/4 of a turn and this is what I got:
You can imagine how happy I was until shot 29. This means that I’ll meet my regulator after all, and not just because of the speed variation, but the waist of air at this setting. I had just 55 shots with lower speed and 65 with higher speed, until I came off the reg. Pretty strange…
Someone said that the new .25 only needs HTS adjustments. He was wrong but I’m not upset. I adjusted the regulator on my previous .22 so I know how easy it is. I just have to figure out which way to adjust as this string is not that familiar.
Endo: I was just teasing you about taking your brand new Matador apart and thereby voiding the warrantee! Ed has said that he designs his guns so that people can work on them. We all know that Ed and Tony will stand behind the Matadors unless somebody tries to work on one and the only tools that they have available are a hammer and chisel!
That’s all of the tools that HOOT has available and is probably the major reason that Ed and Tony won’t sell a Lelya to him! 😯
A couple of months back, when AOA sold me a FX Boss 30 cal, I told them that I was going to make a .257” Hart barreled bull pup out of it and shoot my cast bullets in it. The owner told me that my plans “sounded like an interesting project”.
I called them up a couple of weeks later and asked how to turn the reg up. I just happened to be talking to AOA’s owner again and he told me that if I took my Boss apart, my warrantee would be voided. I told him that since I had the regulator in my hand; could I get some info on adjusting the reg? He wouldn’t give me any info because of “safety and liability reasons”! He wanted me to send the Boss back to them and pay to have the reg turned up!
HUGE difference in the mindset between Ed and Tony and AOA and FX!
I won’t have my R3 25 standard until Wed. Endo and JDR, I am wondering what is going on with the hard last 1” bolt movement! Would you seat a pellet and then open and close the breech once and report back if the bolt is still hard to close over the last 1”?
Endo, I would like to be able to send you some 25 cal JSBs! I have 8 unopened tins that I didn’t think that I would use for a while. My Boss project has taken up all of my free time and it is too cold here to shoot anyway.
Then Tony blindsided me by finally getting a 25 standard in for me! It looks like I might have a use for the JSBs after all!
This is going to be a long post.
Tedd, the gun was very oily when I got it. When I was doing some shimming I found the air tube sitting on the stock bed was also very oily. Extra grease was on the screws too. So, I wiped them out and cleaned the bed and screws. I begged my shooting buddy for some .25 pellets, but he also runs low on his ammos. Anyway, I robbed ~50 JSB Kings from him.
I wanted to do some shooting on this big boy, I loaded the King, then I felt the breech seems to have high resistance preventing the probe to go further to close the breech. In my 22, the probe is smooth and easy to push the pellet into the breech and easy to close/lock the probe bolt. My new 25 is totally different, it is hard to push the pellet once the probe o-rings reach the breech. The final push is HARD. I don’t know what is going on in there. The speed was around 970-980 fps, and I felt it was too high and I turned the HST out to shoot ~870-880 fps. I found the HST screw has some damaged threads already. I unscrewed the lock screw, and again, it was screwed in really tight. The HST screw was also very hard to turn. I felt the lock screw might have done some damage to the threads inside the housing, but I didn’t turn HST screw out enough to see if this is the case during speed adjustment. Then, I heard a voice saying: Please open the breech…open the breech, and clean me up…
For some reason I was convinced by the voice. The reason I got the Edgun rather than the Cricket is because I agree with Ed’s philosophy: the gun should be self-serviceable with simplicity and effectiveness. Plus, I wanted to see Ed’s clever design on the breech, and see what is going on on the high resistance of the breech. As you said, Tony is busy enough in these days and why do I need to bother him more? “Self-serviceable” is Ed’s motto and is mine too, unless something is broken inside the gun, and I need to find it out to report it to Tony with the worst-case. So, I opened the breech, and I don’t think Tony will void the warranty because of following Ed’s philosophy and principle.
The breech is well designed, many red and gray grease inside the breech (too excessive). I cleaned and re-lubed the metal contacts and fond nothing wrong with the breech, the bolt movement is smooth and effortless. I then put back everything, but the last push for pellet to go into the breech is still hard. Jdr also indicated it needs “a solid push to close the past inch or so” (thanks for the info, Jdr.) I hope the gun has nothing wrong in it. The hardness may go away with time after more shootings. I may be too paranoid. Tedd, hope you get the gun soon so you can give us/me a correct diagnosis.
Just a hint, the gun might have over 70 regulated shots with a full fill (200 bars down to 110 bars). I remembered it is said that .25 won’t get more than 70 regulated shots but 60 shot is for sure. If this is the case, the new valve is likely more efficient. Since I don’t have enough pellets to complete a full string, will update this later….
I NEED PELLETS… I NEED PELLETS… I NEED PELLETS…; Can you hear me PA?
BTW, Kazz, make us proud as a Matador owner in your competition.
Synopsys, Thursday is a big day for Lelya and hope she comes with the rail you want. Keep us posted. I am interesting in getting one too. She is captivating.
Endo
Endo, i’m getting a Lelya so I won’t have any insight into the probe thing.
This write up and tear down has me salivating for my Matador Long… Excellent post and photos. Keep ’em coming, I need something to hold me over until Thursday! 😀
Endo: I can’t believe that you took a brand new Matador and immediately dissembled it and by doing so, possibly voiding your warrantee! 😯
Great pictures, by the way!
Keep up the good work!
The extra cocking force is caused by the 25 needing a lot more HST to fully open the air valve. The 25s need to have the reg turned up higher for the 25 cal pellet’s greater weight. Due to the higher regulated pressure, the hammer needs the greater HST to knock the air valve fully open.
My R3 25 standard is on the way and UPS says: “Scheduled Delivery Updated To: Wednesday, 02/06/2013, By End of Day”.
That isn’t going to happen! My UPS delivery guy; the people that work with him all call him “Flash”, will notice a large air gun shaped box with my name on it and he will know that I will track him down when he first gets into town around 10 AM. On the rare occasions that I have overslept and didn’t catch up to him until 11; he is like “Tedd, I have been wondering where you have been!” He always waits for me to open the box and inspect for damage.
Flash doesn’t care about my other air gun purchases but, he always has to handle and shoot a new Edgun!
Anyhow; Endo, Wednesday, I will have my 25 standard and I am looking forward to finding out about the possibly oversized O probe rings.
I’ve waited almost 16 months for it! If I have the same problems with the final closing of the probe, my warrantee will be voided also as I will have to see WTF is going on!
Tony and Ed: I am just bull shitting about a Matador’s warrantee being voided by opening the gun up!
I know that you guys stand behind your product, EVEN if we somehow manage to fuck up a perfectly good gun! 😀
If I all read this in the few time I have I want to shoot again!
I didn’t shoot my edgun since begin November :(((
24th feb the first competitionmatch is up again and it will be my first triggerpull in 4 months :0
Keep up the spirit guys!!
The one I got requires a solid push to close the last inch or so. This is my first one so I can’t compare to previous versions.
I’ve started some tuning and am contemplating my next adjustment move.
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My Eddie .22 does not have this problem with JSB pellets.
I do however notice the increased pressure needed when shooting CPH pellets. You can FEEL the pellet as you close the breech.
I kinda like it, I know the pellet is a nice tight fit..
Who decided this is a PROBLEM, perhaps ED just tightened up the tolerances of these new guns barrels.
Why assume it a bad thing?
How does it shoot is the only issue..