Edgun R3 .22: Shot String, Air Efficiency, & Trigger
This will be a long post, sorry about that. Ran into the dive shop to fill up the scuba tank yesterday. The shop owner put on a pressure gauge to show me how much the tank was filled, because I was “hinting” at him that I could only fill the gun to 180 bars (~2610 psi) last time with a full tank. The tank was indeed filled to the maximum pressure around 3100 psi in this new fill. Interestingly, again, I only could fill the gun up to ~180 bars based on the gun gauge; but the gauge in the fill adaptor showed 3050 psi (~210 bars). It seems that the pressure of my Edgun was somewhat under measured by 440 psi or 30 bars. 🙄
I tested a shot-string using Combro Chronograph, which is a very small and handy chronograph installed at the end of the muzzle area. The starting pressure was 180 bar (based on Edgun gauge) and JSB Heavy (18.1 grains) was used. The first shot was low in speed (878 ft/sec), but the subsequent 35 shots were consistent with average 916.5±4.5 ft/sec (minimum 910 ft/sec and maximum 926 ft/sec). The regulator came off around 130 bars (I think) because of a little rise in speed for several shots and then the speed dropped to around 840 ft/sec for about 13 shots in parallel with pressure drop. The POI (at 30 yards) started to drop slightly (~0.2”) at shot #37 (or the regulator was off at this point?) The POI didn’t further drop until pressure went below 105 bars. I got 35 good shots consuming ~800 psi (from 180 bar to 125 bar) from a 289-cc air tube with average 33.8 foot-pound muzzle energy, which is about 13.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency of air usage. If using Zoco’s data – green-line shot string, 220 bar to 130 bar for 57 shots, ~32.5 fpe (http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=520), I got the number 14 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency.
Based on the data from a shot-string of Royale 400 (without regulator; average 868 fps with 37 fps extreme spread) (http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1318702313/FX+Royale+400+.22+-+90+shot+string+with+chart-target), which consumed 0.94 bar/shot (220 to 135 bars for 90 shots) with ~30.3 fpe from a 400-cc bottle, the air efficiency is 12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb. Using another shot-string (http://airgunadvice.net/viewtopic.php?t=12183), from 220 bars to 179 bars with 36 shots (average 954 fps with 28 fps spread) at ~36.6 fpe, I got the same number (12.4 bar-cc/ft-lb) for air efficiency. Using the data from the FX Royale 400 review video of Ted in Youtube, average 33.53 fpe and 20 fps extreme spread with high power, I got 11.1 bar-cc/ft-lb efficiency. If the medium power is used (884 fps with 31.4 fpe and 13 fps extreme spread), the efficiency will be higher at 9.6 bar-cc/ft-lb. It seems Royale is a little bit better than Matador R3 (standard length) in air efficiency without much sacrificing speed variation in the un-regulator gun.
I think Edgun can be optimized by adjusting the combination of regulator and power to reach max efficiency, but it will need a lot of trial. Or this is already at the optimal condition when Ed designed and set up the gun. What do you think?
p.s
I also installed a Harris bipod BRM-S model 6”-9” in late afternoon, and ran a few shots under high-gust wind (>20 miles/hr) before dark. It seems to improve the unstable sitting of the gun and increase the shooting accuracy. 😛 Will test more tomorrow if weather is good.
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Hey Endo, I somehow missed your picture of the 2 trigger adjuster screws. I saw another picture here somewhere of a R3 from the new shipment and it looked like the trigger only had the front adjuster screw. I guess that it turned out to be a bad angle for the pic and it didn’t show the other screw.
Other people also saw only one screw and were posting that the latest R3s only had one trigger adjusting screw.
MY BAD!
Working 10 hours shifts, not getting enough sleep and posting on the TAG after having a few beers makes me goofier than normal and I am normally very goofy!
My R3 25 long’s shroud would touch the air tube when the trigger guard screw was tightened down. I tried adding a shim under the trigger block and the gun’s action could move a little in the stock. I didn’t like that movement. I put 2 shims between the top of the air tube and the inside of the front scope rail mount. Doing that solved the problem.
In retrospect; I will say that I didn’t see an accuracy increase after I put the shims in but, the gun was more aesthetically pleasing to look at after the shims were installed.
ENDO: Keep up the good work and you could become the NEW Doctor Edgun! I have 3 emails right now from new Matador owners asking me all sorts of questions that have already been covered here in the TAG many times.
I guess that I will just have to start giving them your email addy! 😆
Some people here dump on Tony for not returning emails ASAP! I usually get at least 1-2 a day asking questions that have been covered here on the TAG several times; I can’t imagine what Tony goes through!
Doctor Edgun, your remedies always solve my Eds’ problems. Nevertheless, you need to take care of yourself … if you mount on your beloved Hawke, you will see it is a 2-screw type of trigger in the picture. It is an “old” style trigger in my new gun. You really need to take care of yourself for the sake of our Edgun community, especially in view that many Matadors will flood in in next few weeks and in March (second wave?). You will expect many “patients” seeking for your advice and wisdom.
The .25 barrel was touching the tube. This made me feel uneasy. I didn’t see a gap between breach block and air tube as indicated by Kiba. Robert/Veerkracht told me his gun (R3 .22) also had the same problem. He solved the problem by loosening one of the screws in the scope rail because the screws are too tight that put some torque to the barrel downward. I tested this easy thing first and it does help some. The barrel is not touching the tube now, with a tiny hair space in between (see picture). Thank him for the tip. Both of my guns will push the air tube toward barrel in some degree when tightening the trigger guard screw, but .22 has a shorter barrel so this does not matter much. The longer barrel of .25 causes the problem. Will do some shimming as indicated in your post above if the space between the barrel and air tube is not sufficient. I have dissembled and cleaned (sanding and lubing) the “new breech block”; it is a very interesting design. I have to say Ed has paid great attention to the design of his gun. Unlike the old one, the chamber (or channel?) for the bolt probe is smooth.
Endo
Lih (Endo) How many times have I told you to just leave the damn Matador alone and just shoot the damn thing?
I warned you that once you made a couple of adjustments, it could/would make you really anal on these damn guns!
Did you ever listen to me?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
The rubber O ring in the transfer port between the air valve/breech block transfer port will not work. No matter how hard you try to properly place one, it will eventually blow out of the barrel.
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21235
The McMaster Carr PTFE O ring, after I drilled it out, worked in my R3 25 long for at least 6 months before I replaced it with the copper O ring that F&D sent me. The nice thing about the Teflon O ring was, it would crush down and the shroud/air tube gap stayed the same after the screws were tightened. I had the gun apart many times in the 6 months and the original Teflon O ring never needed to be replaced.
You could have 1 of 2 things, or both, going on here. The copper O ring could be too tall or, the stock is touching the air tube when you tighten the trigger screw. If the stock is touching the air tube as the trigger screw is being tightened, either add a plastic shim between the trigger block and stock OR add a shim between the front scope rail mount and the top side of the air tube. I just add shim/shims between the air tube and front scope mount on my Matadors.
The easy way to tell if the copper O ring is too tall is, measure the gap between the air tube and moderator while the action is out of the stock and then install the action and tighten the trigger guard screw. If tightening the trigger guard screw decreases the gap, you need to add a shim somewhere. If the gap remains the same; the copper O ring is too tall.
It is not a big deal sanding the copper O ring down. Use a sheet of 220 grit wet or dry sandpaper placed on a FLAT surface, use your index finger to work the copper O ring in a fat figure 8 motion. Doing the fat figure 8 motion will insure that both of the copper O ring’s faces will remain parallel to each other.
You have turned out to be at least as anal than I am! 😯
I’m not sure if that is a good thing!
I won’t get my R3 25 cal standard until next week. The suspense is killing me! Does your R3 have 1 or 2 trigger adjustment screws? The pics that you lucky fuckers have posted don’t show it clearly.
Gabe, the info is very helpful. Now, I remembered reading those posts before, but I didn’t pay attention to it at that time. So, this is a known issue on .25.
Will change the transfer port washer to 0-ring work? This seems to me much easier than thinning the washer down. But I think Ed use washer instead of o-ring for a good reason.
I have pre-ordered the pellets and don’t want to spend more cash on AA since the pocket is tight now after sending Tony a big $.
I have lightened the trigger and plan to lube the bolt, as well as take a look the inside guts – The new valve. Will be a busy weekend…
Endo
Endo wrote: “I found the gauge end of the air tube is kind of touching the muzzle end of the shroud. This is not good. I took the action out of the stock and repositioned it, but this does not help. The bed of the stock is also not that smooth fit. I don’t see this in my .22 standard. We will see… ”
Endo,
I had the same problem with mine when I first got it. I had to remove some material from the brass transfer port o ring. It was too high. I sanded it down using fine grit sand paper. It was process because I didn’t want to take off too much material.
Here’s a Post from Kiba who does a great job explaining the issue:
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23877
Hope this help you out,
Gabe G.
BTW, Try the AA fields .25 cals from PA. They are rebadged JSB’s. I bought some and they shoot great out of my .25 cal R3 long.
Gabe, thanks.
Yes, will certainly do some strings and air efficiency analysis. But, I don’t have pellets to play with. JSB Exact King (from PA) has been on backorder for some time now.
Yes, the bolt looks funky and it is tight, not as smooth as my .22 standard. The bolt handle is kind of short and I feel it is not easy to cock. It certainly needs some lube.
I found the gauge end of the air tube is kind of touching the muzzle end of the shroud. This is not good. I took the action out of the stock and repositioned it, but this does not help. The bed of the stock is also not that smooth fit. I don’t see this in my .22 standard. We will see…
Synopsis, please let me know if you also see these if your gun is also .25 long.
Endo
The packaging looks much improved!! The other bits look good too.
Awesome to see the new batch arriving…!
Mine should be here next week! 😮
Hell Yeah!!!!
That is a nice looking gun!
I like the new breech. It matches the color of the rest of the gun.
The bolt looks kinda funky, but I bet it work better or just as good as the prior model. Ed is always pushing the edgun forward with new modifications.
Let us know how she shoots with the new valve. A shot string would be great.
Enjoy Endo,
Gabe G.
See what I got today, it is a late (or early) Christmas.
The R3 .25 long finally arrived this afternoon. Showing some pictures to share my excitement.
Endo
1. The box is intact. No damages found.
2. The peanuts and foams at both ends protect the gun.
3. The rifle bag is well protected.
4. Bubble wraps at both ends of the rifle.
5. The Rifle: R3 .25 Matador Long. It has 200 bars in the tube.
6. It is an “old style” (2-screw) trigger. I thought a new style (1-screw) is installed in Dec, 2012. I think it might be unavailable for US customers.
7. New breech and bolt
8. The gun is oily. Need some cleaning.
I should have listened to my Edgun doctor. Tedd, I just couldn’t resist the temptation to “fix” her when she is sitting in front of me and does not behave herself… now, get to the point of boring and I need a new gun. I am waiting for my .25 long R3 to come, and it has been more than a year now. Recently, shooting small tree branches (abut 0.1”-0.2” in diameter) off at 40-60 yards from my garage and she always brings me satisfaction. Good luck on your Boss/Hart barrel bullpup adventure and please keep us informed on the progress. BTW, your reach at 288 yards with that big-long little thing is amazing.
Endo
Oldgoat. Chairgun has put back in shot string plotter in latest version. Just enter each shot value and it does the work.
Lih, I tried to warn you: once you took your Matador apart good enough would NEVER: EVER be good enough again!
But, would you listen to an oldgoat, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
It is good to see that you are still out there and as anal as ever my friend! 😆
I would like to learn how to plug in shot strings into the software that you are using but, I don’t think that this oldgoat could learn that new trick.
Please keep up the good work!
My Matadors have become almost boring with the way that they are currently shooting but, the only shooting that I can do right now is stick them out of my kitchen window and pop sparrows and starlings at 25 yards that are taking the bait on my backstop. I am not about to get out and hunt or shoot in sub 30 degree weather with snow on the ground!
My Boss/.257” Hart barrels shooting my cast bullets project has been keeping all of my free time tied up. I am waiting for the Hart barrels and a few odds and ends. Two steps forward, one or 1 ½ steps back.
I currently have a Hart .257” barrel for my 25 long. I tried shooting my swaged .258” bullets out of it and the results were not good. I have 2 more casting molds ordered and I will then be able to cast 7 different weight .258 bullets. The Hart barrel will get another try on the Matador this spring. My R2.5 25 long came set up to shoot 37 grain Ein Jin pellets at 950 fps. I have a 36 and a 41 grain cast bullet mold to try in the R3. It will be interesting to see just how far the speeds can be turned up in the R3.
I have high hopes for the Boss project! If I can get the Matador to shoot equally as well with light .258” cast bullets, the Boss will probably go up for sale. That thing is one heavy SOB and with my bull pup stock is still 35” long with a 24” barrel! I have a 24” and a 28” long Hart barrel ordered for it. The Hart 28” long barrel will make the gun almost 40” long and add to the weight.
Sorry for the thread hijack, if any! I want spring to get here, my barrels and other stuff will be here by then and I can start shooting and testing outside again.
There are two recent Cricket .22 shot strings available, one from Sherrod and the other from Sparky in this forum. Since they were all obtained from stock settings, I plotted these data against the string from my stock Matador (two weeks after receiving the gun). I have to say that stock Cricket is very impressive. After tuning, Matador has a new look.
I hope to get some Cricket shot string data from Trygve to add onto the figure. This should give us a better idea on the range of shot-variation of this rifle. Just wondering what lady Cricket would look like if she were fine tuned with HST and regulator. I don’t know how easy this can be done in Cricket. In terms of Matador, ~20 min is sufficient. Maybe Cricket doesn’t need that since her performance in stock form is quite impressive already.
Tedd, this is all your fault, I have addicted to tuning my Matador…:D
Regards,
Endo
Keep them coming Endo, – this is interesting reading…!!! 😀
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No problem, Tedd. I really wish it is a single-screw trigger.
I shimmed my .25 with two pieces of plastic film and the barrel is now in parallel with the air tube. I am happy with the result (the picture was taken against the light to see the gap).
I am really interested in the new style aluminum breech. This gun needs a lot of effort to cock, especially it is very difficult to push the probe further when the probe o-rings reach the breech. It seems the o-rings are over-sized. It would be appreciated if I can have some feedback on this from the owner of the new .25 version.
I dissembled the rear breech block and sanded down some roughness inside the breech. Here are some pictures.
First, to dissemble the rear breach block, you have to remove two breech block screws. The gun needs to be cocked and you will see two screw tracks (one on each side) after pulling out the bolt. To remove the screws, you will need to align the screw track with the screw, then unscrew the screws (see first picture below). The rear breech block was really tight, but I finally got it out (second picture below).
The bolt probe was taken out from the breech block after removing two screws (small one in the probe and the larger one in the rear area of the breech block). I put some silicone grease on the probe o-rings.
The plate for cocking/hammer block was rough at the inner edges and I smoothed it out with sand papers. This will help the tiny bearing ball to smoothly roll up during cocking (if you are familiar with the old style breech block you would know what I am talking about). Tedd has mentioned this earlier in his mods.
Unlike the old style bolt chamber, this one is much smooth. Trygve, you may want to get one of this new breech block for your “mistreated” matadors.
The bolt probe has a small bearing ball. I think this can prevent wobbling of bolt and can enhance the smoothness of cocking. Will the bearing be worn out if I shoot A LOT?
This is an interesting designed in my opinion. I lubed all metal contacts and resembled the bolt.
It cocks smoothly but still has difficulty to push the probe further when o-rings reach the breech.
Endo