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Updated on July 31, 2008
spyder22
Participant
July 31, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Q:

Filling The Tank

Newbie here,
No surprise with this question.
When installing the Adapter onto the Bottle, I see no means of (depressing) the Top Hat.
Is it correct to assume that the in-coming pressure depresses the Top Hat and allows for filling?

General Chat

All Replies

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 58 total)

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walkonking
Participant
August 3, 2008 at 2:27 pm

langnasen
Participant
August 3, 2008 at 2:10 pm
quote knifemaker:

By the way. The pop doesn’t mean that the stem is fully seated. Just that the tap you gave it was enough to partially open the valve. That’s all. the serrations on the stem Could very well be slightly out of clock, or index. . It would still pop the valve. If it should get sideways, you could very easily have a missile coming your way at over 30 fpe. You’ve seen what your gun can do. Stop playing Russian Roulette with it!

Now stop asking questions if you don’t want answers!

The tophat and stem goes down by finger-pressure until it meets resistance. That’s the splined end of the stem meeting the cup (delrin seal). The lower edge of the tophat is clearly too high at this point. A few gentle taps with the plastic end of my screwdriver and the stem is fully seated in the cup, and I hear a pop (don’t need an IQ of 143 to work out that’s the valve popping air). It isn’t going to “get sideways”, it can’t. Physically impossible. Unless the cup shears it’s post, deforms the brass sleeve and otherwise performs feats on a par with Superman stopping a speeding train.

So stop talking bollocks.

Sorry, no offence, that was just in return for your condescension which appears to assume you know me like your own brother. Maybe you and a couple of others around here would like fey acolytes to come bend a knee, tug the old forelock and pay mighty obesiance to your superior ju-ju, but I’m not going to be one of them. You want to call that “arrogance”? I’d call it you having your nose put out of joint because I’m not showing the level of deference you’ve clearly come to expect. Yes, “arrogance” indeed. You might want to turn that one around, sonny.

If anyone else would like to have a pop at me, even though I’ve given nobody any offence at all (apart from that in return) please do it via PM, so we don’t turn this fine forum into a snit-fest. I’ve got a fair amount of tolerance for bitchy attacks but just like anyone else I have my limits and I will respond to unneccesary provocation.

knifemaker
Participant
August 3, 2008 at 11:42 am

Catch up? Only if you are willing to listen to members who have learned the lessons before you. Arrogance can’t help you here.

Grenade. you bet your ass! We had the whole side of a Fire Truck taken out by a faulty fiber wrapped 4500 psi belittle here in the states. The brand was Scott.

But then again you could test any of your power burner rounds by tapping them with a hammer. Why not. Surly there has been a chap some where that has said he did it and it was safe.

Use your 142 IQ , and prove that some one with a half way decent IQ can also have some common sense at the same time.

By the way. The pop doesn’t mean that the stem is fully seated. Just that the tap you gave it was enough to partially open the valve. That’s all. the serrations on the stem Could very well be slightly out of clock, or index. . It would still pop the valve. If it should get sideways, you could very easily have a missile coming your way at over 30 fpe. You’ve seen what your gun can do. Stop playing Russian Roulette with it!

Now stop asking questions if you don’t want answers!

walkonking
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 11:25 pm

Attention to all forum members!

Never remove your tophat to fill your Talon or Condor tank.

langnasen
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 4:04 pm
quote Yellow Ninja:

quote Langnasen:

I understand exactly how the valve works

Then why did you think the Top Hat had to be removed to fill it?

As I said before, I thought there was an issue with the tophat fouling the fill adapter (assumed that was why the chap in the shop removed it). It did also pass my mind the stem’s bore would be more restrictive than the brass collar’s. Idle thoughts that float through ones mind, not deeply considered when everything’s been working ok the way things were being done.

Having just had the bottle apart again I can report that the delrin seal has a long post on it that goes down into the spring (over 1cm) and the brass sleeve down there IS tight enough to stabilize the whole shebang. With or without the stem in place that seal is going NOWHERE! 😆

yellow-ninja
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 12:58 pm
quote Eradicator:

SPYDER22, DID YOU RESOLVE YOUR PUMP PROBLEM. FORGOT THE ORIGINAL POST!

Lack of any follow-up posts suggests yes….

yellow-ninja
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 12:56 pm
quote Langnasen:

I understand exactly how the valve works

Then why did you think the Top Hat had to be removed to fill it?

eradicator
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 11:22 am

SPYDER22, DID YOU RESOLVE YOUR PUMP PROBLEM. FORGOT THE ORIGINAL POST!

langnasen
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 8:44 am
quote shrpshotr28:

Lang,

I will admit to taking my th and stem out with the bottle under pressure several times. the derlin “poppett” is sealed and very unlikely to move in doing so. however, the stem serves to keep the poppett aligned with the valve seat during movement for proper sealing. If you remove the th and stem and fill the tank, you are forcing the poppett to open and close without anything to hold it alligned with the valve seat and risk it getting out of allignment and leaking, either catastrophically or slowly, either way the valve will be ruined. Unsafe……..probably not, as if the valve did seat crooked, when you open the bleeder valve on the pump/fill station you would have an immediate tank dump and any potential flying objects would be contained within the fill adapter. Just that there are better/safer ways of filling the tank.

cheers and happy shooting.

no need in removing the th and stem, if nothing else, leaving it alone will avoid unnecessary wear and tear; as others have mentioned the metal stem is just an interference fit with the actual derlin valve seal so the more you remove and replace it the looser the fitment will become, necessitating the replacement of the derlin seal.

You said you learned this fill method from someone else but to you it sounded questionable……….your common sense was right. Maybe you should have asked the question about fill procedure of others at that time instead of doing it and finding out later that it might be a problem.

Yes, I did wonder a bit about the valve-seal’s stability without the stem to hold it. There is a brass sleeve in there, but it’s not a particularly close fit. The seal does have a long seat into the spring though and I figured that, with the pressure, would hold it well.

However, now that I know the tophat won’t foul the adapter while filling the bottle I’ll be leaving it in for that procedure and use the adaptor as a tophat protector while transporting the bottle.

Thanks for your reasonable and polite advise Sharp. 🙂

shrpshotr28
Participant
August 2, 2008 at 1:34 am

Lang,

I will admit to taking my th and stem out with the bottle under pressure several times. the derlin “poppett” is sealed and very unlikely to move in doing so. however, the stem serves to keep the poppett aligned with the valve seat during movement for proper sealing. If you remove the th and stem and fill the tank, you are forcing the poppett to open and close without anything to hold it alligned with the valve seat and risk it getting out of allignment and leaking, either catastrophically or slowly, either way the valve will be ruined. Unsafe……..probably not, as if the valve did seat crooked, when you open the bleeder valve on the pump/fill station you would have an immediate tank dump and any potential flying objects would be contained within the fill adapter. Just that there are better/safer ways of filling the tank.

cheers and happy shooting.

no need in removing the th and stem, if nothing else, leaving it alone will avoid unnecessary wear and tear; as others have mentioned the metal stem is just an interference fit with the actual derlin valve seal so the more you remove and replace it the looser the fitment will become, necessitating the replacement of the derlin seal.

You said you learned this fill method from someone else but to you it sounded questionable……….your common sense was right. Maybe you should have asked the question about fill procedure of others at that time instead of doing it and finding out later that it might be a problem.

jerry
Participant
August 1, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Well, Im glad that’s cleared up! Leave the stem alone and avoid the wear.

This seems to be a good place to insert the observation of some things that have at least a tangential relevance to the topic:

I’ve got a Condor with a valve that has no return spring and nothing to retain the delrin seal should it separate from the stem. Yes, this has happened before and while no fatalaties or even serious excitement was recorded it did drive home a point about friction fits and slow fill schedules. The only point germane to this discusion is the fact that if you dis-assemble a stem from a fitting often enough, it will fit looser and looser as time goes on.

The other event is weirder. I ran a Sumatra rifle down to zero pressure so I could work on it without any danger of high pressure air whatsoever. When I went to charge the rifle it would not hold pressure and all the air escaped out the fill valve. During dis-assembly I found the brass valve seal with its plastic sealing surface on the other side of a cross tube rod it could not fit past! I took it as a sign that I had pissed off the All Mighty or someone close and just put it all back together as it belonged and its still working fine.

langnasen
Participant
August 1, 2008 at 8:13 pm
quote WalkonKing:

Lang,

It would be easier to suggest something that actually would have helped.

Did you have the screen name “Mr. Condor” on the TOG?

Well, you might of noticed that I did think having the tophat and stem off was correct procedure, so I thought I was helping. As it happens it’s neither here nor there whether it’s on or off so far as the action of filling the bottle is concerned (wear to the collar is another, valid, issue).

But if that’s the worst mistake I’ve made around here I’ll assume I’m reasonably safe from a law-suit so far.

No, I’m not Mr Condor, and I never even saw the TOG, much less was a member of it. I only got my rifle a few weeks ago. But hey, if it makes it easier to bust my balls feel free to re-name me. 😆

walkonking
Participant
August 1, 2008 at 8:00 pm

Lang,

It would be easier to suggest something that actually would have helped.

Did you have the screen name “Mr. Condor” on the TOG?

langnasen
Participant
August 1, 2008 at 7:53 pm
quote WalkonKing:

quote Langnasen:

Us morons like to live life dangerously, right out on the ragged bleeding edge.

It is one thing to do it for yourself. And something entirely different to recommend it to someone else who is having a problem. Besides it is not a solution to his problem in any way shape or form.

If it was dangerous I’d agree, but as it’s not it’s no different to removing the safety-catch from the rifle. Actually, most of the professionals I’ve known would consider that downright reckless, but I don’t see any high-horses being ridden over that around here.

Let’s step back, take a deep breath and stop behaving like I advised somebody to pull the pin from a fucking grenade and throw the pin. 😆

walkonking
Participant
August 1, 2008 at 7:45 pm
quote Langnasen:

Us morons like to live life dangerously, right out on the ragged bleeding edge.

It is one thing to do it for yourself. And something entirely different to recommend it to someone else who is having a problem. Besides it is not a solution to his problem in any way shape or form.

Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 58 total)

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