Help tuning- <12 ft lbs. For those in the know
Hi there,
I know most of you are used to work on much higher power, i wonder if you could give me some advice with regards to setting a consistent power/speed for my needs.
My rifle arrived in uk already set up by Ed, at 11.5 ft lbs.
The hammer spring screw is almost all out, with about 3 threads still in.
I wanted to check its consistence so i chronoed it on several occasions.
My aim was to get 570 fps with jsb exact 15.9 grain, wich translates to 11.5 Ft lbs and thereabouts, which is a safe limit i don’t want to exceed.
Anything above 582fps would be above the limit.
I have found however inconsistence between shots, up to 20fps, so i’m obliged to keep the speed at 550fps, to avoid breaching.
550fps is too slow and it changes the poi a lot beyond 50yds.
The changes in speed occur both during the same refill, and from a fill to another.
I.e, i set it a 570 and i think i got a good consistence, then refill and find out 20ps dofference.
I don’t think temperature influences that much, as such changes can be seen in a matter of minutes.
I fill at 220 bar (my bottle gauge) which is 210 on the gun’s one.
I think the power is higher to start with and then goes down and settles at 170bar, but you appreciate police will fill at 200 and start counting from there!!
Initially i thought the spring was beddin in, and needed to be broken in before settling at its final elasticity, but i’ve shot about 2000 pellets and i guess i should have happened already (or do i need more?)
Im currently trying to make veeery small adjustments at time, rather then moving the screw too much, slowly incresing, let’s see what happens.
However i would muh appreciate your thoughts with regards on how to obtain the best speed consistence.
I hear you unscrew the regulator 1/3 of turn and then decrease the spring tension, i guess i should do the opposite, so that more power needs to be applied from the hammer to discharge the air. This way i can tighten the screw a bit more, as right now i think it is so decompressed that it doesn’t “get” or “keep” the fine adjustments i make to its tension.
I hope you know what i mean.
Anyway i would much prefer to find a solution without having to strip down the gun.
I thought wih a regulated rifle i should have not bother with this shite, but it now seems i can’t enjoy using it as im always there checking the speed.
That’s very disappointing i must say.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers.
All Replies
I don’t lube the pellets.
I fill at 210 as this is how Ed fill his guns, so that it settles at 200.
Anyway, 210 or 200 i don’t think makes much of a difference.
I will ask for Sean’s services if i realize i need more tuning.
Thanks!
not sure about the matador am not tech but 2 of my guns say the power will decrease or the gun will lock up if you exceed the fill pressure, so i make sure when i fill that it doesnt exceed the 200 bar just to be sure..
Hi Monbear!
I don’t lube the pellets.
I fill at 210 as this is how Ed fill his guns, so that it settles at 200.
Anyway, 210 or 200 i don’t think makes much of a difference.
I will ask for Sean’s services if i realize i need more tuning.
Thanks!
when i spoke to sean the owner at the time he said the gun smith said it reminded him of the axsor a bit and it would be no trouble to sort, they reduced the transfer port and changed the hammer spring, that was 2010 still going fine, i think the r3 must be slightly different as mine was 200 bar not 210 like yodas careful not to leave your gun into warm a place that could increase the pressure a tad and if you lube your pellets try leaving your gun barrel down when in the bag so no lube travels insde your gun, these are things i have been told not things i know but i take no chance with my best gun..:D
If it’s the same person, it will take them 2 min to do it perfectly.
I’ll wait to see how im getting on and then… I’ll ask you for dome contact details and names!!;)
Thanks!
It would be the same person that did dels. If anything went wrong the original parts can be put back in. They dont alter the original parts. I am a very good customer of theres and they know me. I trust them so wen i get my edgun i will see what its like and probably send it to them. I live in the cheshire area pal.
Scott
Mmmh, not clear if they know what they are talking about, ideal scenario would have been to have it done by same person that has done moonbear’s.
My only concern is that if they mess up something (whatever really) there are no spare parts.
I know they are professionals, but still.
For now i’ll give it a miss, but keep e updated with yours.
Btw, have you got it already or you are waiting to get one?
Send me a pm and let me know how you are proceeding/where are you based, would be very happy to let you try my matador if this can clarify some of your doubts..
I asked if it was a simple process and he said its not the simpliest as they new lathe new parts but for £120 it cant be that hard for someone that knows wat hes doing. I also asked if the parts removed can be put back in and he yes you can keep the original parts
Hi Scott,
That’s very useful to know..
I had been in touch worh moonbear, he told me about cheshire but i didn’t want to send it over to them (yet).
By the way, is the job going to be done from scratch or they did remember the gun and the process involved?
Afterall they might have done just one so far, and perhaps not the same gunsmith will work on it.
One thing is them knowing exactly the process involved, another would be letting them experiment.
What did the say?
Pls let me know!
Cheers!
Hey mate
Like people have said these are made for fac level and no rifle i know of can be tuned up or down by such an increase/decrease in ft/lb by using the standard parts. I know a guy called del also know as moonbear who has an edgun who had it imported at 32ft/lb but then tuned down by cheshire gun room whom i have just been on the phone to and said then can do it for about £120 by putting a smaller transfer port in etc. whilst remaking with a lathe the parts
Hope this helps
Scott
I think i Reached an acceptable result.
I have realized that temperature plays a role as well, might be acting on the gasses or to the elasticity of the spring as we know metals do expand/shrink wt temp variation.
Once i set a speed, it maintains it, problem is it changes with temp, rather than time, as i thought.
Hence the fact that’s not the just the first shot of the day affected, but all.
I’ll keep it set to be legal indoor, when going out (cold) speed can just decrease, since i know it i can tune for as and when.
Ive put some marks for different hst position/speed/temp, so i don’t need a chrono each time.
The spring seems to be working well.
Not keen to choke the port, at least now.
Would be nice to hear from Ed himself, but i don’t think he gives a damn about the issue, or he would have done something before cashing in.
Cheers
Hi Yoda,
As you say yourself, – the Matador may not have been set up for sub 12 ft/lbs. As it happens, Ed himself has confirmed over and over again that it has been optimized for 18 grs JSB at a speed around 920 fps. That’s it. While being an astonishing piece of equipment, it was never meant to deliver sub 12 ft/lbs.
I have been importing sub 12 ft/lbs guns from the UK on several occasions and “deregulated” the same guns (Daystates, BSAs) to “FAC-levels” (no restrictions on power in Norway). Not once have I used the same hammerspring or transferport. As it happens, my UK shipper has always supplied the two items needed by “separate post”.
Unless ED himself is confirming it otherwise, I think you are trying to achieve the “impossible”. Would be interesting to hear if you have heard from other owners in the UK. They must have experienced the same problem…..
What I think is needed is for the master himself (ED) to come forward with some piece of advice (and may be a new hammerspring and transferport)………
I fully understand your frustration, and I am following this thread with great interest as I spend a lot of time in the UK………
Cheers from Trygve in sunny Lanzarote…. 😀
It might be perfectly normal for these regulated high power rifle, but, for instance, my air arms keeps quite constant overnight and hasn’t got a regulator at all. The speed does go down with shots but it’s a quite gentle curve, and most importantly you never get surprised with over the limit shots.
I appreciate these are rifle made to shoot at 12fpe, so no surprise.
Sometimes overnight the speed had gone up a good 30 or 40 fps, so we are not talking about low figures here.
Anyway, Setting it 50fps below the limit it’s not good as 50fps is giving up quite a lot of energy, i’ll try with 10 or 20max.
Keep in mind that ‘my’ 10fps variation (at 500s) don’t equal to 20fps at you 1000s speed, as the curve is not linear. Slower speed rifles are much more affected by few fps changes.
I use jsb exact 5.52 15.9grns in all my rifle and i’m not keen to change them as they are brilliant, However i’ll give it a try with something lighter if i find the right ones.
Bottom line, for those considering buying these rifles to shot at 12fpe..
Think thoroughly, as out of the box the rifle is pretty much useless.
I would probably buy it again nonetheless, but it is worth mentioning for those not keen on spending their freetime stripping down their rifles, trying to figure out how to make them shoot properly.
This is of course until OG decides to set one of his at 12fpe, at that point we’ll have a protocol to follow for the conversion!;) right now it’s just my hit and miss attempts.
Thanks for the advice
Yoda,
The thing is your talking about a change that is say 10-20 fps overnight, and that in itself is spread you get with some of the top rifles in the market.
So it compltly normal. Ofcourse in your case its bad for two reasons.
1- Its above the legal limit.
2- It affects ur POI.
So now that we agree that ur rifle & “regulator” is perfectly normal for that kind of spread. Let’s move to solutions to these two issues that u can try.
1- set it at like u said about 30-50fps “under” the limit just incase it does creep a little up.
2- as I said, try finding a ligther pellet to shoot it a little higher. Or a pellet with better aka higher BC that won’t get effect much by 20fps change.
Naser,
That reassures me, in a way, because it tells me the reg is not broken.
However, i can’t afford over the limit shots, even if they are one or two or once in a while.
Anyway, as the speed doesn’t go up that much,i think that by setting it at 560ish rather than 570, might ensure that even “day after” faster shots are still within the limit.
I’ll keep checking it, you see, once it happens i need to wait 24hrs, as just a few hours doesn’t affect it at all, and speed keeps nice and constant.
Out of curiosity, what is the reason why the “day after” shots are faster?
Furthermore, why isn’t just the first pellet of the day faster, instead of. Good 5 or 6?
I can understand the pressure in the compression chamber of the reg might change if left overnight, but once you fire the first shot, i would expect it to go back to the values of the day before, does it make sense?
Thanks all again for the inputs
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Will do!
Just out of curiosity:
What is the usual fps variation you get with your gun, 10fps? More?
Any difference you might have notice with number of shots fired or temperature or whatever?
Curious to know what is the level the gun reached after was tuned by cheshire gunsmiths.
Thanks!