Help tuning- <12 ft lbs. For those in the know
Hi there,
I know most of you are used to work on much higher power, i wonder if you could give me some advice with regards to setting a consistent power/speed for my needs.
My rifle arrived in uk already set up by Ed, at 11.5 ft lbs.
The hammer spring screw is almost all out, with about 3 threads still in.
I wanted to check its consistence so i chronoed it on several occasions.
My aim was to get 570 fps with jsb exact 15.9 grain, wich translates to 11.5 Ft lbs and thereabouts, which is a safe limit i don’t want to exceed.
Anything above 582fps would be above the limit.
I have found however inconsistence between shots, up to 20fps, so i’m obliged to keep the speed at 550fps, to avoid breaching.
550fps is too slow and it changes the poi a lot beyond 50yds.
The changes in speed occur both during the same refill, and from a fill to another.
I.e, i set it a 570 and i think i got a good consistence, then refill and find out 20ps dofference.
I don’t think temperature influences that much, as such changes can be seen in a matter of minutes.
I fill at 220 bar (my bottle gauge) which is 210 on the gun’s one.
I think the power is higher to start with and then goes down and settles at 170bar, but you appreciate police will fill at 200 and start counting from there!!
Initially i thought the spring was beddin in, and needed to be broken in before settling at its final elasticity, but i’ve shot about 2000 pellets and i guess i should have happened already (or do i need more?)
Im currently trying to make veeery small adjustments at time, rather then moving the screw too much, slowly incresing, let’s see what happens.
However i would muh appreciate your thoughts with regards on how to obtain the best speed consistence.
I hear you unscrew the regulator 1/3 of turn and then decrease the spring tension, i guess i should do the opposite, so that more power needs to be applied from the hammer to discharge the air. This way i can tighten the screw a bit more, as right now i think it is so decompressed that it doesn’t “get” or “keep” the fine adjustments i make to its tension.
I hope you know what i mean.
Anyway i would much prefer to find a solution without having to strip down the gun.
I thought wih a regulated rifle i should have not bother with this shite, but it now seems i can’t enjoy using it as im always there checking the speed.
That’s very disappointing i must say.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers.
All Replies
Yoda, did the speed increase a lot? It seems that the gun shoots just opposite to what you described earlier that speed is decreasing with shots. Now, it sounds that you have too high of reg pressure or too low of HST that makes the valve fail to fully open, which causes an increase speed with shots when tube pressure is decreasing. It is not easy to fine tune the gun…. I agree. I have the same frustration in this process.
Endo
Fired another couple of shots this morning (pressure was around 145 and i have not changed the reg, the same as in the above strings).
The speed had gone up from where i left yesterday.
I’m starting to think it is a too random pattern to understand what’s going on!
I think i will try to move the reg once again one last time, after which i will revert to stock and stop bothering..
Yoda, I will try 12:09. I was surprised that a tiny bit of changes in reg can have big impact on the stability of the speed in my gun. Once you have the reg adjusted, turn the HST out to 480-500 fps and then gradually increase the tension to 570. The amount of increase in speed with increased tension (make a record on how much you have turned in the screw) should taper off when reaching an optimal tension. If you further increase in tension, then you will get lower air efficiency. Give it 5-10 shots for each small increment in tension to see the stability of the speed. A balance between regulator pressure and HST dictate the stability of the gun speed. I kind of enjoying assemble/dissemble the gun now and can do it in 30 min with reg adjustment. The thing I don’t like is waste the air and pellets. I expect to have a “perfect” tune on my Edgun because it is made to be perfect. It is hassle to go back and forth on reg and HST to have an optimal setting, but once you have it set right (to where you want), you shoot your gun with confidence.
Endo
Endo,
Are you suggesting to turn the reg counterclockwise “a bit more” comparing to what i’ve got now or comparing to stock?
Remember stock was 12 o’clock, now i’m at 12:10 (1/6 clockwise).
When i had it stock, with speed set at 570, it would then drop a little with shots. If i increased the hst to make it 570 again, at next refill i would have been above limit.
Pretty much the same situation i’m now.. Can’t really tell if worse or better..
Confused! ❓
Thanks
I refilled again this morning, 210 bar.
The first shots were much faster than what i set yesterday.
Fail!
Still in the dark on what to do.
Reg clockwise, counterclockwise?
I need to gain consistency from a fill to another as i can’t afford such faster speed from a fill to another.
I’ll wait for all the comments before opening things up, as i’m not enjoying it so much anymore.
Cheers
Yoda, I think you might have turned the reg pressure a little bit too low. This may cause a gradual decrease in speed with shots. Or the HST is too high that waste the air. Since you want to keep the speed at around 570, it doesn’t make sense to reduce HST in your current setting. So, it may help if you just increase the reg pressure a little bit more. Then adjust the HST to the speed you want (i.e., 570). I have been playing with the reg lately for my Edgun, and I think I am getting close to where I want it to be. Dr. Edgun has been very helpful in this regard.
Endo
First of all, a big thanks to OG for the constant advice in my tuning.
I’m getting there.
The following are 2 strings after my reg tweaking.
It might be of huge interest for those willing to tune the matador below 12fpe (uk ppl mainly). For the others, any advice is appreciated.
I use jsb exact 15.9gr so my aim is 570fps (11.5fpe), with an ideal max +/-10fpe difference.
Anything above 582 is illegal.
OG is away, i’m sure i’ll add his input when he is back.
My reg was set at 130, as written on it when i opened it.
I turned the screw clockwise, about 1/6 of turn (i.e. stock at “12 o’clock”, now it is 12:10ish).
I was told the reg “gets” its setting at the second refill, not at the first one.
So the next is the first string, where i started tuning the hst.
I refilled at 210bar and i got an astonishing 183 shots before the reg switched off.
As you see i had to increse the hst 3-4 times, as very slowly the speed was dropping. What this means i don’t know, i think OG will know why, and will tell either to turn the reg a tad more, or less. We’ll see.
The second half string (75 shots) is after the refill, i.e. the string that the rifle should keep thereafter.
1) 553 553 549 552 557 (here i incresed the hst) 571 570 568 567 566 566 567 562 564 565 565 564 566 563 561 (20shots)
564 (here i was at 190 bar) 560 560 560 562 562 560 558 556 558 559 556 558 556 557 (here i incresed the hst a little) 564 571 570 569 (40 shots)
Now let me use 2 digit
69 71 68 68 69 69 69 67 67 67 71 64 63 66 65 63 65 65 65 (60 shots)
64 64 64 64 63 60 61 64 59 59 62 60 64 63 62 63 66 63 63 61 (80 shots)
62 65 62 63 (165 bar) 62 63 (here i increansed the hst again) 76 73 75 71 73
72 71 73 71 70 71 73 73 73 (100 shots) 70 73 74 7373 71 73 73 71 69 73 73 73 72 72 73 71 70 71 71 (120 shots) by now i realized i got the hst tension i needed 71 75 73 71 71 75 73 75 73 72 71 72 73 73 73 73 71 72 73 72 (140 shots) 70 71 73 71 74 74 69 72 72 68 71 71 71 75 72 73 74 74 73 74 (160 shots) 71 72 73 72 70 71 73 74 71 70 72 66 69 70 71 69 66 69 71 71 71 72 (181 shots) here the reg came off and speed went up. (125 bar).
HERE I REFILLED TO 210BAR.
1) 562 560 62 60 60 61 59 59 59 59 60 61 63 58 61 71 61 65 63 (20 shots).
59 60 61 61 61 58 58 61 58 57 60 60 62 63 60 59 59 59 58 57 60 59(40 shots)
60 59 59 61 58 61 58 (here i realized the reg “locked” at 60ish and i increased the hst- i was at 185bar)
65 68 62 64 (another tad of hst here) 74 72 71 67 69 69 69 69 (60 shots)
67 67 69 67 71 66 70 71 66 67 68 66 68 71 68 (75 shots)
Here i stopped as i was reasonably happy the gun was tuned at 570ish i wanted.
I shot another time 20min later and the first shot was at 550, but then it reincreased to 67 66 68.
My conclusions
It has taken 2 fills for the reg to “lock” as expected.
With such reg screw turning, i had to increase the hst several times, as the speed showed a tendency to slowly decreased with the shots.
At the second refill the speed was initially lower, and needed a little more hst.
The second refill string shows more consistency, however somethng tells me there is still a tendency for the speed to drop (which i’m almost happy as i dread the speed going up, for legal reasons).
The question is: does this tendency mean something?
What?
Does it say i need to turn the reg screw more clockwise, perhaps to 12:15 (1/4 turn), for this constant dropping to stop.
Now it’s time for the experts to comment.
Ps
I fogot: to get where i am has taken me 5 rifle assembly/disassebly.
When i first turned the reg screw clockwise the speed had gone up compared to stock, and I had to decompress the hst.
Now i’ve noticed i have a leak, i know what it is, i didn’t put enough silicone grease when inserted the reg.
I’ll fix it next time i open it and hopefully will be the last time i touch it, as i’m a bit tired and would like to focus back on shooting bunnies.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks.
OG
I have notice that Ed in this video uses a different technique to remove the reservoir.
He doesn’t remove the breech (he just removesnthe long front screws and loosen up the rear one, then cocks the hammer)
Then he doesn’t remove the trigger assembly, again he removes the screws on the reservoir back cap, but leaves the screws at the front of the trigger in place.
The reservoir slides out anyway.
Can i use this techinque as well on my R3.
I guess the less pieces i take out/apart, less chances to screw things up?
In the video he also points out a o ring, that falls down when he slides the reservoir out.
He indicates how to put it back into place.
In your video i don’t see it..
Just checking in preparation of my matador ‘surgery’
Cheers
Oldgoat,
Although you have certainly deserved it 😛 , i don’t think i would be selling my matador Any time soon!
Even like this, out o the box and whith a few unprofessional (mine) attempts to tune it, it is already usable and below the uk limit!
Lokking fw to getting my chrono back and start working on it!
Yoda, yes, I think that you need to turn the reg down a little. As your gun is set up right now, I think that the reg is set a little too high and the HST is a little too low. The hammer can’t fully open the air valve until the pressure has dropped in the air tube.
In theory, the air tube pressure shouldn’t make a difference in speed until the air pressure drops below the reg’s set pressure. I don’t know why the air tube pressure makes a difference but, it does until the reg/HST is adjusted to the “sweet spot”.
If you turn the reg down a little and up the HST you should be able to get the wanted consistently with out going over the 12fpe limit.
If after making the adjustments and the Matador is still not working for you, PLEASE send it to me!
I will gladly pay you what it cost you and I would also pay for shipping! 😆
Oldgoat thanks for the thorough istructions.
I have found however a discrepancy (?).
In a earlier post you said that when you turn the regulator down (less pressure in it), i requires LESS hammer spring pressure to open the valve, hence the fps will INCREASE.
So i would need to decompress even more my already decompressed spring to keep the limit!
This is not what we wont, as we are seeking to conpress my hammer spring more to a more stable compression.
This is what doesn’t make sense to me.
Of course, unless I turn the regulator so MUCH down, that a full opening of the valve (with a properly compressed hammer spring) releases the EXACT quantity of air i need to consistently get my fps. (and not a tad more than that!).
Is that what you mean?
Yeah, it would definitely need several attempts.
Thanks for the teflon orings, howver i hope to get there keeping all the parts stock.
Ps
Remember not to send me the orings before the 16th of april, as discussed!
Many thanks!
Trygve, good point on adjusting the transfer port opening! I thought about that after I posted and had to leave for work. This 12 fpe max is new stuff!
Yoda, I just need to label all of the O ring orders and then go to the post office and get them sent. In addition to your O ring order, I will send you a couple of Teflon O rings for you to try in the transfer port. These Teflon O rings usually need to have the ID opened up to work in the Matador. The stock Teflon O ring’s smaller stock ID could help smooth out the shot string by putting a restriction in the transfer port.
Turning the regulator down (clock wise) reduces the pressure that the reg allows to be sent to the air valve housing. If you decide to get into the reg, there is a locking screw in front of the reg adjusting screw. It needs to be turned anti clockwise to remove it to get to the reg adjuster. PLEASE be sure that you have ALL of the air pressure removed before you remove the front plug!!!!!!!!!
If you turn the reg down, there will be less pressure in the air valve housing. More HST pressure will allow the hammer to consistently open the air valve. I think that your HST is now too low to fully open the air valve when the air tube has full pressure. As the pressure drops, the HST will start to increase the fps.
A reg that is set too high, with a HST that is too low, will also show a 10-20 fps difference from fill to fill.
Ed didn’t design the Matador to shoot at 12 fpe. Tuning the Matador down to that level could take a little work. I really think that it can be turned down to 12 fpe and still have the 3-4 fps shot to shot variation and a max speed spread of 10-12 fps until it goes off of the regulator.
I have been thinking about turning my R2.5 22 cal standard down to around 12 fpe and using it for shooting pigeons and starlings in barns.
This is going to be interesting!
Yoda, you need to adjust the regulator to a lower pressure so that the air you are expelling each shot has a lower energy, but then turn up the hammer spring tension so that you are getting a consistent strike on the valve.
Scott thanks for clarifying the law, useful to know.
There are many guns that allow adjustments of power, actually most of the high end field target rifles.
They need to be adjustable for the changes in weather or altitude.
Doesn’t matter if they allow 20ft lbs ranges or 2ft lbs, Or 0.2;
once you are above 12.00 you are illegal, so doesn’t have to be a huge adjustment, it’s a on/off issue rather than scales of greys.
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Yes, whilsT i started tuning it (strings above) the speed was getting slightly lower and needed hst top ups.
Then on the second string i thought it had stabilized.
However, after refilling again at 210, the fist shots were 40fps higher, so i had to reduce the hst again to make it 560fps
Then I shot 100shots to reach 125 bar (reg disengaged) I refilled again, and this time the initial shots speed was around 540 (lower again).
It has completely a mind of its own.
However, as on my second string above i set up the 570 midway to the fill, it might make sense that the first shots of the next fill were faster (perhaps when pressure incresed with the fresh refill, more air was released?).
I know this shouldn’t happen, and this might be the reg pressure too low.
This last time however, after reducing the hst to 560 again, at the next refill the first shots were 540, not faster but slower then were i left.
Would this behaviour fit with the reg pressure set too low and the hst can’t release the valve evenly through the charge?
How can i ensure the hst tension releases always the same amount of air throughout the charge and in between fills?
As this erratic behaviour has happened both when stock and when reg was moved to 12:10, i’m thinking about moving it to 11:50 (pressure higher than stock), this way i’ll need more hst tension than stock, there is no way that the first shots of a refill would be faster than the last of the previous one…
Thanks for the comments!