New breech (sure not the one you eventually get though!)
Hi
New youtube video
Before you start getting excited, shall I say that for me it is Nice to see how quickly Ed actions his “new breech” (backandforthbackandforthbackandforth), when the one i got in my matador R3 (which is btw the newest model!) every time I load a pellet needs a full hand on it, a good 3kg of pull, and a couple prayers perhaps, to make up for the poor drilling used when it has been manifactured!
What is the point of advertising a new piece when the actual parts that are shipped to the “loyal customers” are made with knives and forks?
Good engineering goes together with quality control, and most importantly customer care.
Sorry guys, i flagged this in a previous post, flagged it to the manifacturer and i didn’t even get the courtesy of a reply (not to mention the possibility of having a faultless replacement breech sent with apologies!)
(Link to original post below)
http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23947&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Cheers
All Replies
Give these experts investigation, why not try the Teflon tape, or even simple masking tape, run along the bottom half.
See where it is dragging and determine if it can be smoothed or made slick some way. Beware, as Ed said, not to change the tolerance or it will be loose and worse. Perhaps your ball bearing is cracked, uneven, or missing a spring. Perhaps the indentation is too deep and a tiny drop of epoxy can bring it up….you never know till you find exactly where the troublesome friction is located!
This is a simple friction problem. Friction can be overcome with a bit of imagination and location of the exact drag patch. I’m willing to bet that, given the talent on this forum, many machinists, that an answer can be developed for you. That’s better than living with the problem.
This may help others! You are morally obligated to try this. Failure to do so will cause you to go straight to shooter’s hell when you die.
Imagine an eternity of nothing but “Fliers”, and a guarantee of release if you can get a five shot group of 1″ in 33 feet. Is THAT what you want?
Regards,
Kindly ‘Ol Uncle Pain in the Ass H 😯 😯 T
I never gave the cocking handle/breech on my R3 25 long a second thought until Yoda posted his problems here.
I took my breech apart and it was rough inside also. I used a round jewelers file to smooth the spring loaded ball bearing’s path and it helped some but, it wasn’t bad before.
My R3 22 long’s (newer gun) cocking handle/breech is fine and so is the cocking handle/breech on a buddies R3 25 long. My buddy’s R3 25 long is one of the ones that came in Tony’s last shipment so, the newer R3s might be better machined in the breech block area.
Here’s what OG posted about the issue in the comparison thread. It seems Yoda is suffering from the same problem as I have experienced:
With any lube in the breech block bore, the “grooves” shouldn’t make a difference as the bolt would just ride on the top of them. I think that the spring loaded ball bearing is causing the drag that you are having. If the grooved bore was greased, and the bolt didn’t have a spring loaded ball bearing, it might actually have less friction than a greased smooth bore.
Sorry about the crappy pic. Cheap camera, too many beers and this topic made me have a couple more while tearing my R3 down to take this pic!
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it! 😆
You could try polishing a very thin straight line up the inside of the rear breech block’s bore where the ball rides on as the bolt is being cycled back and forth. To me, it looks like you would need to polish a straight path that was about 30 degrees counter clockwise from the drilled hole. Polishing a 1/8” wide path wouldn’t result in any added sloppiness in the bolts movement and might smooth the bolt’s cycling up.
The screw in my bolt wasn’t stripped out, my rear breech block doesn’t seem to be as badly grooved as yours and my front breech block is black. You, Ed and I might be air gun brothers but, I guess that I’m Ed’s favorite brother! 😆
There’s a difference between Yoda’s breech and OG’s. The latter seems a lot smoother with fewer/lower ridges…….
😀
ETL (English as my Thrid Languages) and I do not have to try to understand that Yoda is referring to a function issue and not look. He’s only adding the picture to as a reference this might be the cause of the problem.
Starts to sound like once you bought it, “it’s your baby” or “sent it back in prestine condition (i.e smooth breech)”
good luck Yoda.
Did you ever take the bolt out and wrap it in Teflon tape and put it back to see what happened?
Scrape marks could tell you where it’s binding, and a solution might follow, or it might work like a new one. In that case, get the dang thing coated by a machine shop with a PTFE or other permanent slick finish.
Another thought is it being too loose and canting sideways when you pull back to cock it.
Just a few thoughts.
H 😯 😯 T
Thanks hoot
I can’t add much else really.
I’m in uk, here sending and receiving guns via post is not seen as a nice thing to do, so not keen to send my gun for assessment.
As you have also pointed out travelling around post offices can turn a rifle into a bull pup, and perhaps a bullpup into a handgun, so i like my matador where it is now, in my gun safe.
However, the pics i have posted are the proof, and, detail not to forget, i flagged this back in may, when i didn’t certainly know there was a new breech in the making, so, you can definitely say im not after an upgrade and still, i don’t want it.
I’m happy with steel!
As you know from my original post, after lubing it to no avail with Moly grease, i ended up sanding the ridges a bit, so now it “looks” better but it ain’t changed much in what it is. (Pictures after sanding are, again in my original post). So “an assessment” would not add much anyway.
So, if Ed thinks my issue might be coming from fair grounds, i’d gladly receive a steel breech replacement.
However it is not up to me to decide.
As any other Edgun owner i felt the mission of spreading the word about these great pieces of kit (still not more than a bunch in UK), but i must say this breech issue has indeed spoiled my mission a fair bit.
I’m known in my airgun shooting club (600+ members) as “the guy with the matador(*exclamation marks*)” And, one by one all came to have a look.
There were quite a few tha could not resist but saying the (envious) derogatory remarks and stereotypes about russian guns (i.e. “does i come witha warranty ah-ah!?”, I’d like to tell them it all ended up well.
Btw, gunned down a magpie in the afternoon, and the headshots can still put a smile on my face, fortunately.
Cheers
Yoda spent a lot of money for his Edgun. We’ve seen the problem with the broken stocks and we accept that packaging and shipment can take a toll on wood. But this is different. This is improper metal on metal contact, not “looks”. He’s asking for a bolt/breech that chambers a pellet properly, without excessive force.
Ed told us there is no “fix” for Yoda’s problem, because polishing it would make it too loose.
If it is obvious Yoda’s bolt doesn’t slide or chamber properly, and a reasonable fix isn’t possible, then that is a defective part!
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I think Ed is under the impression that “Looks” is the complaint, but it is not!
It is the “Function” with his bolt and breech that has failed. Ed, he just wants his Edgun to chamber a round without excessive force.
At the very least Ed, can’t Yoda send you the gun and you can check it yourself to see if his complaint is valid? That should make everyone happy, and show concern on your part.
Unless there is something we don’t know about this situation. Some customers can be unreasonable, but Yoda doesn’t seem to fit this description.
H 😯 😯 T
Ed
You need to take a look at the R10/Scopion breech on the BSA PCP’s, the bolt runs in an Acetal tube/bearing.As long as everything is sized right they are silky smooth to cock.
Basically, you bore the breech for the bolt 4mm oversize, then make up a 2mm wall acetal tube with the slots machined to allow the bolt to action and lock down. if lube is to be used use graphite or Moly powder, nothing wet…but i doubt lube would be needed.
there are actually plastics that wear as well as acetal but have a lower friction value than ptfe now…you want smooth look into them 😉
falcon hammers run in a PTFE liner, I think the bolts do also..its old technology but it works and is tried and tested.
Ripley bolts run on phosphor bronze bushings with super tight tolerances i hear…if you want fine engineering that is where to look
Mine has not improved with use.
And certainly i don’t expect my bolt’s ball bearing to get grated and sanded every time i pull it back and forth, hoping that instead of it getting trimmed beyond repair, it starts “digging its way” through the steel ridges/ripples.
It is like stroking the ball bearing against a cheese grater, and i do feel each single bump, and there are a hundred or so.
My picture in my post is still crappy, but it is more than obvious that a ball bearing sliding in and out does create tons of friction.
Ed, all:
This is not about looks……
This is all about function……..
As much as I agree that your R3s shoot exeptionally well and with air effciency umatched by most, – it still remains a fact that cocking is not as smooth as we can see it from your own testshoot video. That bolt handling is actually quite rough…..
And there are obvious reasons why it is. The below image some of you may have seen before. It is a crappy picture, I agree, – but you should be able to see the ridges inside the bore where the bolt travels:
On the bolt itself there is a spring supported ball bearing that travels in and out with the bolt. That spring supported ball has to travel across all those ridges when you pull back the bolt. As the ball jumps across these ridges, – it generates a very uneven feel when pulling the bolt back. The result is a rough bolt handling. NOT something one would have expected from a gun as nice as the R3……..
Tedd (OG) has confirmed his bore does not look as bad as mine, – so apparently they are not ALL the same………..
Now, mine has improved a lot after a few thousand shots. I guess the ball bearing has managed to “smoothen” it’s path down the bore. Also a generous application of white lithium grease has helped……
But still:
I am surprised you did not detect this bolt behaviour while testing my gun. And I am surprised you would allow a bolt assembly like mine to leave your factory…. 😉
Cheers 😀
Ed
I don’t care about look. Otherwise i would have not bought a matador, that goes without saying.
And i don’t want your new aluminum breech upgrade.
Perhaps you missed the point.
I want a breech that is not faulty, actually a breech that is not a joke, because mine is and i have been shooting bolted airguns for 25 years and currently own 3, as we speak.
The reason why i wasted my time opening it up, is because i could not cock it, not because i felt the urge of seeing how good it looked inside!
Ok, so now that you say all your steel breeches are ridged and bad looking (actually i have been told they are not, by other members) could you admit some might not work for some other reason -not linked to their look-?
I like the “car” metaphore, here is mine:
“It is like i buy a car, it doesn’t start, i remove the pistons and the cylinders are all ridged and bent and “ugly looking”. They are certainly still “cylinder shaped” buy they work crap”.
How does this metaphor sound?
ALL steel breeches are made the same, with terrible inside look, but as I told before they are cylinder shape and works as they were designed to. That time we didn’t have any possibility to make them smoother. My philosophy is to make a gun which shoot well, even if it doesn’t look well 🙂 If there is problems with shooting, I will get into it to solve the issue. If the “problem” is in the look, sorry guys, I cannot follow everybody’s view of “perfect look” it is different for everybody, that is just a matter of taste.
So I don’t see any reason to make a replacement, it looks as you have a car, then a manufacturer makes a new car with the same name and you will come to him asking to replace your car just because a new one is better — nonsense. If tomorrow I will make the multy-shot breach someone, who bought single shot version today will ask me to replace it because it cost the same money? Nonsense again. People call it progress 🙂
I always tell everybody I cannot make the perfect gun, I just try to do it, and there are many parts in may guns I, personally, would like to change, but it doesn’t meant that gun with these parts is not carrying out the main purpose — to hit the target as far as possible and as accurate as possible.
Funny thing but in Russia some people say that older EDguns, make “on knee” were much better even so they were terrible looking from the point of machining. Tastes differ, I know…
Zoco
I missed part of what you wrote:
Just to be even clearer, as you rightly say, no we are not talking about “look”,
The reason i ended up “looking” at it, was because it wasn’t freaking working and my thumb was getting blistered!
That was pain, not look.
H 😯 😯 T
If you can give a clear message with all the details in a short answer.. that’s perfect! 🙂
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I won’t do anything else to my breech, nor allow a machinist to fiddle with it, to have it back dameged and unusable.
My breech is faulty, no doubt about it, and i asked to have it replaced with the same model (steel).
That’s all.