Quick Fill mod passes hydro testing…..WHAT??????????
Well it seems that the quick fill mod has passed the hydro test….
It works and it is safe…
Now all the nay sayers can publicly admit that they have no idea what
you are talking about when it comes to drilling and taping bottles, and that you were wrong and AZ and Tim are right……..
You have just been schooled by Tim @ Mac1….Another non certified
hack that has helped to improve this hobbie and make it safer…
Remember when the world was flat?
Never hurts to have an open mind….
Eye Candy CO2 Jet Car-Spirit of America
September 16 2009 at 7:39 PM Tim McMurray (Login Mac-1)
YF
——————————————————————————–
I promised I’d post the pics when the Spirit of America Replica Jet Car was completed. This car is CO2 powered by two 20 oz tanks attached through the base of both tanks.
What makes this post on topic is there has been considerable controversy about whether this is an acceptable modification to drill and tap tanks with threads to accept Quick connect couplings. Because we like to make sure we are doing things safely we had the two Siamese 20 oz tanks hydroed as a unit and they passed for pressures generated by CO2 systems. The car was clocked at 68 MPH on a 32 foot tether making a 64 ft diameter circle in about 2 seconds. Total run time is just over 2 minutes. Larry Goddard is the builder with CO2 tanks provided by Mac1 and Hydroed by Ross Fire Extinguishers in Long Beach CA. The Jets Horn shape was generated from input from a good friend who worked on the Shuttle thruster development at Marquart.
Larry has some extraordinary toys including a paddle shift Ferrari 430 I’ve been invited to test drive when I get back from South Africa next month.
Larry does very clean work. He is definitely a toy lover and creator. To visit his home in Malibu is a delight and I do so as often as I’m invited.
He has some very nice airguns and is one of those guys that really enjoys his wealth.
All Replies
I have been a hobby machineist for 19 years now.
I have 2 lathes, a milling machine, surface grinder, tool grinder, rotary table, superspacer, etc, etc.
I heat treat tool steel in my own heat treat furnace.
I design and grind my own custom carbide tooling.
At work, I design high speed production machinery for a multinational manufacturer. I design mechanical components (to optomize speed and durability), using knoledge of “strengths of materials”, physics, and simulation programms. Then I design and program computer based electronic controls to operate those machines. I am degreed engineeer sense 1975.
In the airgun hobby:
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .458 caliber airguns @ over 700 FPE.
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .357 caliber airguns @ over 300 FPE.
I have built 50 to 75 (lost count) experimental valves, and freely shared what I learned on this forum. I even helped Lang with his first valve designs — remember Lang?
My current project is a QB style airgun action (all components of my own design). It will include an air tube made of 4130 alloy steel.
The air tube has a basic strength of over 12000PSI (calculated by “barlows formula”). The valve and end plug thread shear strength is calculated at 30,000 PSI (calculated using info from “machineries handbook”). The tube end strength is about 20,000 PSI at the thread cross section.
I hope my calculated strengths are safe enough for a 3000 PSI working pressure. I can presently “proof test” to only 4500 PSI cuse thats as high as my compressor will go. I may need to purchase a 6000 PSI hydeo pump before I am done.
So I have some shop experiance and some education, that allows me to forward my huble opinion here.
I never bashed your boys, I never bashed anyone, I meerly forwared my opinion on this subject.
However:
Personaly, I would not have anything to do with a business model that included drilling openings into a DOT certified cylinder, and letting my customers do the pressure cycle testing. Now you might take that as a bash? , but again its only my opinion.
cycled thousands of times without a failure..Now what is your point
Oh, and by the way, I understand and use calculus all the time.
I am usualy a modest person, but you forced me to state my qualifications.
Your guys, might be fully qualified to make the tank modifications, but my point is : dont say its OK for just anyone, who may not have the experiance or tools to correctly do the job. Thats all!
Love
Mark
Right off the bat..These 2 guys are not hobbiests…If you would take as
much interest in reading these post as you pose to take in the imminant
danger, and pending doom, of this mod, you would have already
understood that these 2 guys have forgotten more than you know..That
is a fact..
I saw nothing that qualifies you to discuss HPA tanks in any forum or
context….
WHAT exactly is your purpose for wanting to classify this mod as life
threatening…It is clearly not…
Please show me a picture of your Theoben or BSA bottle with the up to
date Hydro Test cetification stamp….I venture to say you can’t, which
would make your equiptment, as or more, dangerous than this mod.
So explain to me exactly how the quick fill mod process is done and
where the error is in this process that makes it so dangerous…YOU
CAN’T…Please I wish you could..You have never done it….End of
story..You have no experience in it which makes you ignorant of the
process….I would think that this would be really easy to understand for a
man with so much knowledge and experience….
Keep in mind that it has NEVER failed….Why not if it is so dangerous?
You can’t answer that either….
And if you are so weak that others can force you to type ie: your
qualifications, then I really feel sorry for you…You posted your
qualifications because you thought it would support your argument which
is again pointless…The mod is not a threat to life and limb…
I did not say that you didn’t understand calculus….But that was a great
spin you put on that spec of information too..I’ll give you props..You are
a politician. You have a nack for making something out of nothing. Your
time could be better spent. It is called a Metaphor …I could have used
golf, or space travel, or common sense as the subject..It was not to infer
that you personally don’t understand calculus. I can’t believe I even have
to explain that……It is starting to look like you are typing just to
convence yourself.
This mod does not deserve the negative publicity it is getting…
Let’s just say that if some one was bad mouthing your home made gun
for no good reason or out of ignorance I would do the same thing for you
as I have done for AZ and Tim….It really kills me that you try to make it
sound like these to guys are putting lives in danger….
Show me where in any of this, or any other post, that I said it is ok for
anyone to do the mod themselves….That has never been infered or said.
You
are a bold face, lying, shit stirrer….IT HAS never even been discussed
until you brought it up….You are trying to accuse me and others of
making that statement and at the same time trying to make me believe
your not guilty of malice? I call BULL SHIT!
Go build another gun Mark..You are waisting your time and talents here.
Thats what this forum is all about.
Sharing and good will!
Mark
Yeah, well you were one of only a handful replying to anything I said with seriousness while the others were just taking the piss.
Thanks Lang!
Thats what this forum is all about.
Sharing and good will!
Mark
I have been a hobby machineist for 19 years now.
I have 2 lathes, a milling machine, surface grinder, tool grinder, rotary table, superspacer, etc, etc.
I heat treat tool steel in my own heat treat furnace.
I design and grind my own custom carbide tooling.
At work, I design high speed production machinery for a multinational manufacturer. I design mechanical components (to optomize speed and durability), using knoledge of “strengths of materials”, physics, and simulation programms. Then I design and program computer based electronic controls to operate those machines. I am degreed engineeer sense 1975.
In the airgun hobby:
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .458 caliber airguns @ over 700 FPE.
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .357 caliber airguns @ over 300 FPE.
I have built 50 to 75 (lost count) experimental valves, and freely shared what I learned on this forum. I even helped Lang with his first valve designs — remember Lang?
My current project is a QB style airgun action (all components of my own design). It will include an air tube made of 4130 alloy steel.
The air tube has a basic strength of over 12000PSI (calculated by “barlows formula”). The valve and end plug thread shear strength is calculated at 30,000 PSI (calculated using info from “machineries handbook”). The tube end strength is about 20,000 PSI at the thread scros section.
I hope my calculated strengths are safe enough for a 3000 PSI working pressure. I can presently “proof test” to only 4500 PSI cuse thats as high as my copressor will go. I may need to purchase a 6000 PSI hydeo pump
before I am done.
So I have some shop experiance and some education, that allows me to forward my huble opinion here.
I never bashed your boys, I never bashed anyone, I meerly forwared my opinion on this subject.
However:
Personaly, I would not have anything to do with a business model that included drilling openings into a DOT certified cylinder, and letting my customers do the pressure cycle testing. Now you might take that as a bash? , but again its only my opinion.
cycled thousands of times without a failure..Now what is your point
Oh, and by the way, I understand and use calculus all the time.
I am usualy a modest person, but you forced me to state my qualifications.
Love
Mark
If you helped me with my “first” designs you need shooting. 😆 😆 😆 I was tacking extra bits onto the bottom of a stock valve, and while they worked they were pretty dire. 😉
I think you gave me advice with my later more conventional attempts (and you say so, so that has to be correct). I can’t remember specifics, but I do know that every time I see your name up there on the left I have a feeling of good will. 😀
MaM:
I have been a hobby machineist for 19 years now.
I have 2 lathes, a milling machine, surface grinder, tool grinder, rotary table, superspacer, etc, etc.
I heat treat tool steel in my own heat treat furnace.
I design and grind my own custom carbide tooling.
At work, I design high speed production machinery for a multinational manufacturer. I design mechanical components (to optomize speed and durability), using knoledge of “strengths of materials”, physics, and simulation programms. Then I design and program computer based electronic controls to operate those machines. I am degreed engineeer sense 1975.
In the airgun hobby:
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .458 caliber airguns @ over 700 FPE.
I designed and built what might be one of the most powerful .357 caliber airguns @ over 300 FPE.
I have built 50 to 75 (lost count) experimental valves, and freely shared what I learned on this forum. I even helped Lang with his first valve designs — remember Lang?
My current project is a QB style airgun action (all components of my own design). It will include an air tube made of 4130 alloy steel.
The air tube has a basic strength of over 12000PSI (calculated by “barlows formula”). The valve and end plug thread shear strength is calculated at 30,000 PSI (calculated using info from “machineries handbook”). The tube end strength is about 20,000 PSI at the thread cross section.
I hope my calculated strengths are safe enough for a 3000 PSI working pressure. I can presently “proof test” to only 4500 PSI cuse thats as high as my compressor will go. I may need to purchase a 6000 PSI hydro pump before I am done.
So I have some shop experiance and some education, that allows me to forward my huble opinion here.
I never bashed your boys, I never bashed anyone, I meerly forwared my opinion on this subject.
However:
Personaly, I would not have anything to do with a business model that included drilling openings into a DOT certified cylinder, and letting my customers do the pressure cycle testing. Now you might take that as a bash? , but again its only my opinion.
cycled thousands of times without a failure..Now what is your point
Oh, and by the way, I understand and use calculus all the time.
Mam Wrote:
understand it..Especially when I don’t understand it myself.
I am usualy a modest person, but you forced me to state my qualifications.
Your guys, might be fully qualified to make the tank modifications, but my point is : dont say its OK for just anyone, who may not have the experiance or tools to correctly do the job. Thats all!
Love
Mark
I only wish that AZ and/or Tim were able to do a write up on exactly
what it is that they do and explain it to these HPA knowitalls…I venture to
say every last one of them would be sitting with thier jaw in thier lap and
wondering why they didn’t have the guts, balls, intelligents to figure out
that the benefits out weighed the “danger”. I can only imagine that they
would go back to thier argument that it isn’t an approved practice…
If you have some real input as to why this mod has not EVER EVER EVER
failed then I welcome your contribution to this hobbie and
sport…Otherwise, how can any sane person continue to debate the
something that has already proven itself…..
again people stick to the facts,,,
THE MOD HAS NEVER EVER FAILED….
Explain that…….
You can’t because you don’t have the information neccessary to carry on
an informed and intelligent conversation about the subject….
Your time would be better spent figuring out how to make the Marauder
shoot a 1/2″ groups at 20 yds..Not much to ask but not many can do that
either much less discuss the quick fill mod….
Trying to prove that a mod doesn’t work after is has been working for
years is just friggin down right STUPID and pointless…
One note of possible interest, something called ‘overmatch’ in terms of AP round vs armor. I’d guess that so long as the diameter of the hole did not exceed the thickness of the wall in which it was drilled it would be inherently safe under any pressure for which the bottle was rated.
An interesting debate. Technically I can see no reason why drilling and tapping a fixture into the base of a bottle would present an inherent danger. I used to be given the same crap over drilling audio input-holes into my crash-helmets. But personally I’d like to see such a bottle over-filled until it failed, and then see where it failed. And I’d put a lot of money on it having failed at it’s weakest point, midway up the side-walls. The last places it would fail would be at the neck or the drilled base. In my personal intuitive gonzo opinion. 😆
Oh yeah, that’s the same gonzo opinion that held I’d be able to make successful valves when all the experts here were basically telling me I didn’t have sufficient machine-tool skills and experience. 😉
*JaboOody dubs voiceover* “Still won’t be drilling and tapping no bottles though…” 😆
looks like WOK has some work to do, somehow the work butt has to make room for the gauge 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯
crackin, keep it up my man, I know Tim personally and know that guy has his shit together, more than any pellet gun guy on the planet.
I am sure his doings are quite safe by any means.
SAW
Yep.
Only those who know these guys seem to understand that Saw
But I think I understand…If you are from America it is impossible for you
to know more about airguns than the boys overseas or to our north…
Yea right…PPPfffftttttt
Tim’s rifle won the friggin WORLD Ft championship for God’s sake…Wake
up to your own ignorance….These 2 guys are not hobbiest..They are
literally geniouses in the airgun business…
In fact, I’m quite baffled why someone would lash out in such a personal matter over something not even involving themselves.
The gas of choice here is CO2, which is provided at a considerably lower pressure than compressed air, therefor, if you mod a compressed air bottle, it may well hold CO2, but that doesn’t mean that the mod is safe (it is not mentioned that the bottle used was designed for CO2)
It doesn’t mean that it isn’t either, nothing is proven in such a case.
Hydro test pressure is indeed 1,5 times the working pressure, but I can guarantee you that NO manufacturer produces potentionally lethal products (a failing pressurised reservoir is indeed very lethal, no denying it) with a safety margin of 50% (except maybe the chinese), the hydro test pressure is a control method to determine when a certain bottle has reached the end of its useable life, not a production approval test method.
Just saying that this mod is not life threatening doesn’t make it so by definition.
Again, I don’t question Tim or AZ or their work, that is not my concern, but I do, respectfully, question your deliberate bashing of Mark’s posts with loosely related statements when he is a knowledgeable and skilled member of this community, raising some very very very valid concerns on this topic.
Kind regards,
Bart
Don’t get your panties in a bunch defending your buddy…Now you know
how I feel when people start attacking AZ and Tim…Ignorance does not
denote stupidity…
Mark has never done the mod unless he is secretly AZ or Tim mac…
Saying that i infered that any one could drill a tank any where they
wanted to with out any safety issues is just a bit reaching…Don’t you
think? Especially when it SPECIFICALLY STATES “BOTTOM” Maybe he
confused you with that false accusation…Didn’t work on me…
Just saying that the mod is life threating doesn’t make it so by definition
either
and that is my point….I have never said that the mod was 100% certified
safe….Others will make ignorant comments that it is unsafe and I can’t
just stand by and let people with absolutely no quick fill mod experience
make those kind of statements..I don’t drink Koolaid either…As far as I
know you guys have never even seen it…..That is how litte info you
provide to substantiate your claims. How much do you guys actually
know about the quick fill mod and the procedure? Anything…..?
Crickets could be heard for miles with the silence….
This mod is not dangerous enough to have any more concerns than
removing the safety of a gun…Trying to do the mod yourself would
concern me and should not be attempted….If I were telling people that
this was a mod they could do in their shop,, I could understand the
concern but I just don’t think it carries that kind of weight. You are
entitled to your opinion and have the choice of not buying it….You don’t
have the right to tell everyone that it is too dangerous to have on thier
gun…you have no proof…The mod has a track record and now legitimate proof….And no I did not say a guaranty…..
That is my point….
Thanks for the kind regards
Jeff
mmmgh-
looks like WOK has some work to do, somehow the work butt has to make room for the gauge 😯 😯 😯 😯 😯
crackin, keep it up my man, I know Tim personally and know that guy has his shit together, more than any pellet gun guy on the planet.
I am sure his doings are quite safe by any means.
SAW
the hydro passed for ” CO2 pressures”
so what would that prove for 3,000psi fill systems?
How much is 1.5 times the operating PSI of a co2 tank?
2,700+psi? maybe..Close enough…It passed and you were wrong and still are Walter….
And you’re showing your colors again…..
Wow you sure got a sharp toung there!
I didnt say anything bad about you!
MaM wrote:
how to do it nor do you have the experience or skills to figure it out…
AZ and Tim Mac seemingly have the resources plus the knowledge and
skill to make it work….
If you knew me, you would know the above statement was false!
I love you too!
Mark
Mark, it is frustrating trying to explain calculus to someone that can’t
understand it..Especially when I don’t understand it myself..All I know is
it works and has passed a hydro test..You make statements but have
nothing to back it up showing that the tank is due to fail..You make a lot
of accusations with nothing to back them up.
This is a bad procedure to advertise on the internet, because some one will read your post and start drilling holes willie-nilly on his tank.
He might not even have the skills to choose the right tap drill.
This statement is so irresponsible, I don’t even know where to start..
I didn’t do any of these mods. And I was not the author of the original post.
And no one infered that a tank could be drilled at random locations…It is
absolutely specific to the bottom of the tank….
How can you come up with an accusation so damaging and far fetched
and still feel as though you are not using a sharp tongue…Maybe I am
just say what I mean instead of infereing things or putting the politicians
spin so that my argument carries more clout…
Might explain my sharp tongue….
how to do it nor do you have the experience or skills to figure it out…
AZ and Tim Mac seemingly have the resources plus the knowledge and
skill to make it work….
And as far as the above statement being false…The only way it could be
false would be if you were in fact AZ or Tim McMurray….YOU HAVE NOT
DONE THE MOD NOR HAVE YOU SEEN IT DONE……
And then this one
Mark
I think any one can run a hydro on any bottle they want if they are
involve in a personal project…Are you now the HPA police too…i don’t
think you are really understanding what you are arguing about…Is it
legalities, safety, morality, human concern?
Do you really have a dog in this fight?
I do.
In other words, what exactly is the subject of your concern?
Now mam, if you don’t mind me saying so, calling Mark ignorant, implying that he’s calling other people a hack, reaching, incompetent, selfish, not concerned for other people’s well being, unknowledgable, unexperienced and unskilled is pretty harsh when he brings up some very very valid points.
In fact, I’m quite baffled why someone would lash out in such a personal matter over something not even involving themselves.
The gas of choice here is CO2, which is provided at a considerably lower pressure than compressed air, therefor, if you mod a compressed air bottle, it may well hold CO2, but that doesn’t mean that the mod is safe (it is not mentioned that the bottle used was designed for CO2)
It doesn’t mean that it isn’t either, nothing is proven in such a case.
Hydro test pressure is indeed 1,5 times the working pressure, but I can guarantee you that NO manufacturer produces potentionally lethal products (a failing pressurised reservoir is indeed very lethal, no denying it) with a safety margin of 50% (except maybe the chinese), the hydro test pressure is a control method to determine when a certain bottle has reached the end of its useable life, not a production approval test method.
Just saying that this mod is not life threatening doesn’t make it so by definition.
Again, I don’t question Tim or AZ or their work, that is not my concern, but I do, respectfully, question your deliberate bashing of Mark’s posts with loosely related statements when he is a knowledgeable and skilled member of this community, raising some very very very valid concerns on this topic.
Kind regards,
Bart
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Lang:
You were really mad, back in those days.
Nowdays your almost a “regular citizen”!
You were more fun when you were acting up!
Mark