Quo Vadis marketplace, – or what’s next…???
Hmmm…..
What’s happening next now ? Where is the market going with regards to our beloved bullpups ?? 🙄
I’m trying to polish my crystal ball here, – not an easy task. But it’s fun to sit back and try to analyse…. 😉
I have asked previously and will ask again. I know others have asked the same. How long will this bullpup craze last ???
My guess it’s here to stay. The number of people I know who has “converted” from “normal” guns is surprisingly high. And judging from feedback from various sources, it seems an increasing number of individuals now see their bullpup as their number one airgun to go to. There could be numerous reasons for that, – however size seems to matter, and accuracy has been documented over and over again. “Fashion” may be a part of it too….
Size of market ? I have no clue. The US alone counts some 250.000.0000 individuals. If 1% should own an airgun, – we’re talking some 2,5 mill. units. Probably a bit optimistic, – but whatever way you look at it, the marketplace is obviously quite big….
Now how many bullpups have entered the US market as of now ? Again I haven’t the faintest, – but my guess is we’re still not talking more than about a couple of thousand units at the most. Even that may be a bit on the high side judging from what can be seen from forums, producers’ reports and importers’ own information. Face it, – when a shipment of 100 units becomes a big deal, – the total number of bullpups already here cannot bee enormous. My figures may be wrong, and I’m waiting to stand corrected. However in my opinion, we are far from a “saturated” market as per today….
The players in the market are so far Edgun, Kalibr and now the upcoming P12 and twins. FX is a good runner up with their BobCat, and Evanix is in there too somewhere. May be a few others…..
It is fascinating to see how the different producers play their game.
The recent price drop from AOA indicates to me that they want their slice of the cake. Whether their price-drop is meant to put individual dealers out of business by squeezing their margins and later put the price up, – or drop the price to get more volume or both, I don’t know. However the Cricket price drop is a fact, – and AOA seems to firm the grip. Now IF they have signed a sole agreement with Kalibr, – my guess is it would have been as a trade off for more volume. Now, with the new Snowpeak P12 and clones, – that volume may not be quite as easy to achieve. The Cricket people may find themselves in a squeeze very soon. If they don’t lower the price even more, – they may find the biggest lump of the volume market may be eaten by the P12 and friends. The P12 potential seems huge if they play things right (quality control, return policies etc.)
Attacking the volume market and fighting the Chinese may have some undesirable side effects in the long run. I would never underestimate the ugly and unmanageable word “perceived” value of the product. The “identity” if you like. “Perceived value” is inevitably linked to price. Now if the Cricket people ends up spiralling down prices in order to master competition volumewise, it may be good for consumers in the short run. However quality and service is bound to suffer in a longer perspective. You may end up finding very few retailers around willing to support the Kalibr team because of low margins. The above is based on the pre-assumption that the Chinese have a lower cost of production.
In short: Our beloved “Crickets” (I love mine) run the risk of being perceived as an inferior product compared to other brands. IF the Kalibr operation has signed an exclusive deal with AOA, – they may actually have signed a deal with “the devil” himself. AOA will most likely start squeezing the Kalibr operation for margins very soon……..
Also I wouldn’t be surprised if AOA suddenly flags an exclusive deal with the Chinese. If that happens, cards may be reshuffled and redealt……….
I feel really sorry for guys like WWAG/Steve and their strive for an optimum customers service and their desire to be the best. So far they are quite unique, – but for how long ????
The AOA would most probably flag the BobCat as their top of the line bullpup. At least for now. Others may come onboard (Daystate ?) and compete. Both brands carry a “perceived” value which in my opinion do NOT reflect their “real” value. I think they’re overpriced for what they really are. In the case of FX, – it is seen as rather ordinary in other markets and not as “exotic” as you see it in the US. But there again: “perceived value” is something very difficult to define…….
Now, what about Ed in all this ?
What seems obvious is that he may not sell as many of his guns into the US as one could have expected only a year ago. And quite honestly I don’t think he cares much. He has a long list of buyers signed up at home. He hasn’t invested in a long and costly production line, and he seems to want to be in the business because he thinks its fun. His products may seem overpriced by many, but unlike all others there’s a “feel” that a part of Ed himself is in the package there somewhere. And while it is true that his arrogance sucks at times ( I have seen my fair share of that), that spareparts are few, return policies not to our liking etc. etc., – he has still proved over and over again that he somewhere down the road stands behind his product and will support you until the end after all. The Edguns may in my opinion “float around” in it’s own “niche” where price may not be seen as important for a long time still. And they may continue to win 100m contests as they have in the past.
What a beautiful position to be in……….
My two cents (probably not even worth that much…….) 😳
What do you guys think will happen……?
Cheers
Trygve :biggrinn:
All Replies
With the way the P12 seems to perform ….
I’m afraid I shall have to agree to that. The Cricket has already been thrown to the wolves (ref price drop by AOA). Now we don’t know who’s behind this or why. Not yet. All we can do is speculate. Anyway, whoever tries to bring it back up where it belongs “imagewise” as we may feel it, may be facing a tough task…………
@ eelect. I’m with you all the way, – and the Cricket compact may very well be my next gun. That said, neither your sentiments nor mine will ever be enough to satisfy whoever is behind the Kalibr operation who needs to sell volume to pay off investments. And as for European tradition, – I agree with you too on that one. Unfortunately the market has wanted it differently. There’s a lot to learn from the springer market here. Look at Webleys, – one the best European springers. They’re gone. Others are bound to follow…..
Finally, – I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a Cricket clone/copy very soon coming out of China………
Sad it is, – but what to do….???? 😉
Your 100% right. But it’s fun though
It has already started ….. Kalibrgun didn’t drop there prices for no reason, they are smart in Czech seems someone knows the storm is moving in…..
With the way the P12 seems to perform ….
I think its debatable if KalibrGun dropped their prices. The P12 will win some guys over who want a BP and don’t want to spend a lot of money. But we know for a fact this thing has not been sold yet and has not gotten feedback from 10000 airgunners. We only have a few guys testing them and that just the start. Its another story sorting out the unexpected issues, what you do about them, who does the services on them, and who pays for all this. Crossman has built PCPs for years and still can’t get it right. (maybes they have it right for the price point)
i will say all speculation… on my part too… Time will tell
It has already started ….. Kalibrgun didn’t drop there prices for no reason, they are smart in Czech seems someone knows the storm is moving in…..
With the way the P12 seems to perform ….
I think its debatable if KalibrGun dropped their prices. The P12 will win some guys over who want a BP and don’t want to spend a lot of money. But we know for a fact this thing has not been sold yet and has not gotten feedback from 10000 airgunners. We only have a few guys testing them and that just the start. Its another story sorting out the unexpected issues, what you do about them, who does the services on them, and who pays for all this. Crossman has built PCPs for years and still can’t get it right. (maybes they have it right for the price point)
My Brother Dman,
Sorry, i am not very good in English,,, or i am not an expert in English ,,, i couldn’t get you on the above enlarged …. some times i cannot understand some written ((slang or street talks)) ,,, which is not familiar to me,,, that is because i didn’t live US or Eu,,, i only learn English because it is necessary for my job,, and i started two years ago ,,, sorry 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳
Monkey see, monkey do is a saying that popped up in American culture in the early 1920s. The saying refers to the learning of a process without an understanding of why it works. Another definition implies the act of mimicry, usually with limited knowledge and/or concern of the consequences
It has already started ….. Kalibrgun didn’t drop there prices for no reason, they are smart in Czech seems someone knows the storm is moving in…..
With the way the P12 seems to perform ….
My Brother Dman,
Sorry, i am not very good in English,,, or i am not an expert in English ,,, i couldn’t get you on the above enlarged …. some times i cannot understand some written ((slang or street talks)) ,,, which is not familiar to me,,, that is because i didn’t live US or Eu,,, i only learn English because it is necessary for my job,, and i started two years ago ,,, sorry 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳
I first started out with Benjamin Marauder.177 a few years ago and got the taste of PCP Airguns. Then moved on to 22 cal Rainstorm which is a great shooter too and quite short too. Then later on got a 177 rainstorm II as well. I had sold the Mrod at that point. Through alot of reading and experience I concluded that the cricket is the gun to have. Based on looks, shot count, availability, accuracy, service, it has all the bases covered. So it was a no brainer for me. Regardless who comes along what really matters are these things mentioned before. With the price drop lately on the crickets its pretty much a slam dunk. The Czech Republic is renown for building the best Airguns out there. You just can’t ignore that. They have built their company around making great and accurate guns and no P12 is going to steal their thunder any time soon. The Europeans have this built in DNA that is quality first. My back ground and thinking is the same as my ancestors come from there. We hate junk and when we build and design something its good and it works well. On a different note I shot my cricket yesterday after I got a replacement shroud it would shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards. I had a tear in my eye after the 4rth five shot group was completed. I almost cried. Some of you might know what I mean. I just knew that’s exactly what KalibreGun wanted it to do. I bought the gun because I knew it could deliver. Cheers my friends
HEMM… I’m with you on that one… I think its more like the ol monkey C Monkey Do
I was shooting birds off hand yesterday with my compact anywhere from 30 to 63 yards(my farthest one shot kill) and i took one at 80 something yards with it rested on my arm braced against a tree.
That was 3 hrs after opening the box straight from WWAG. no tune nothing. charlie shot it to make sure it worked thats it.
and this is my first cricket/ real bull pup
Let’s face it the internet is a brutal place
So far I’ve seen 2 reviews about the P12….Wingman and the one Hemn posted….Both required an overhaul to get them to hold air….but it doesn’t seem to dissuade people’s anticipation of their release? That’s what I mean about perspective….why is ok to pay $700-$1000 and have a leaking gun but not ok to buy a $2000 gun and have leaks?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Good / wisdom and nice comment brother Btango,
so, a guy or addicted man to airguns like me,,, o-rings,,,or let say leakage is big deal and i cannot afford/ bear/ suffer to have an airgun regardless the cost, and have leaking ,,,, since i am living in an oily country/land ,,, so, availability of o-rings or anything related to my hobby is a big matter and cannot get anything here,,, as most of you know that my Edgun O-Ring have been sent to me by my brother Tedd (free of charge), … and my benji Mrod ordered from USA as well,,, one of my relatives last year came back to visit us ,,i asked them to order them and bring back them with themselves ,,, it has a long story ,,,don’t want to write,,,
any matter regarding the leakage is a big matter/ problem to me ,,, it is like breaking the gun for parts ,,, Oh,, another funny story of mine :rofl: :rofl: ,,, last year ,,my Benji Hand Pump stopped pumping ,,, one of the smallest o-ring was wear out ,,, and i contacted SunOptice in USA the only place that stock them ,, they said we will send you a set for $35 …. but finally after so many days and sed/back emails,,, i was stuck on the payment method, they asked for the Business card number and all details,,, usually US markets don’t accept business cards that issued in Iraq, so ,,, i changed my mind and had to buy a new pump, then i found BEST FITTING ,,,they were quite helpful ,, and i could buy my hill pump ,,, ,,, ((( at that time i didn’t know you guys ,,otherwise i would ask one of you guys to buy and send me the o-rings,,, ))) ,,, all of these story took me almost 2 months ,,, i could manage myself with only remained 1,800 PSI in my M-rod reservoir and every day i took almost two or three shots in order to have ability to hunt during my hand pump dying/absent….
see guys ,,, for one small o-ring i had to buy/ spend GBP 180 ,,,, So, don’t you think o-rings or leakages is not a matter ????????????
i will talk about only Bullpup air rifles ,,,since currently we are living in a Globalization ,,, we need everything optimized/ zipped or make big things small ,,,or compact rifles,,, i think the time of big rifles or things are already gone ….
regarding the Cricket ,,,, however i know it is one of the accurate BPs,,,and compact as well ,,,but still i have my doubt ,, why folks are not stop sending them to brother Ernst to turn them directly after getting them in their hands ,,or even some of them directly will ship them to Ernst from its way …. but in the future i will buy one God Willing ,,, Sir Ville will help me ,,,
Edgun,,,, i am quite sure ,,, regardless the spare parts and customer services ,,, the guns will be the same quality,, since they will stay as a hand made or hand assembling BP….
FX bobcat ,,,they are accurate and AOA should take care of them,,,and make it works for the skill guys today … price and all,,,,,
P12; i am never willing to buy one unless i have to read or watch as many as vids that i saw on Edguns or Crickets …. also ,,with these issues i will pay only $300 … no more ,,,
in my point of view ,,, if there are 5 points to how check and choose your rifle,,,, you should put the point # 1 , 2 and 3 for accuracy ,,,, then 2 points for the rest …
all of the above points are just my :2cents: ….. if you don’t like it just ignore it….
Now, if you check out snowpeak’s website and look through their range of products, – you may recognise quite a few of them I think…. 😉
http://www.china-airrifle.com/
These guys have been out on a rainy day before and most certainly know a LOT about the distribution network already. I wouldn’t sleep too well if I were Mrod/Citrus or even AOA if they decide to go for it………..
Interesting times ahead for sure……… :biggrinn:
I ordered 2… cause I’m not gonna pay 1800$ from them when AOA Trys to make a dominating move.
If they are anything like my cricket…. ill be in love. this dam compact is just a blast
In the lower price segment yes………..
I only beg and prey AOA/Kalibr will not try to stop them…………. 😉
After citrus gets them zingers (p12 MK1) out at G-note a piece the P12 will be fully evolved an coming in by the pallet at a steady stream……..
And if ole citrus wants to stay in the circle he will have to lower his prices drastically and its gonna cost him. he only got like 17 of the zingers… his next order will have to be a big one. and if he wants to sell then he’s gonna have to beat the competions price. because by that time these p12 will be dominating. and everyones gonna be after them.
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Making a cricket clone would be easy just looking at it as its very simple to work one and very thought out. But the barrel might be tough to clone just yet. Maybe the p12 will shed some light as how they can mass produce great barrels and keep them as accurate as the ones being tested.