Q:

Quo Vadis marketplace, – or what’s next…???

Hmmm…..

What’s happening next now ? Where is the market going with regards to our beloved bullpups ?? πŸ™„

I’m trying to polish my crystal ball here, – not an easy task. But it’s fun to sit back and try to analyse…. πŸ˜‰

I have asked previously and will ask again. I know others have asked the same. How long will this bullpup craze last ???

My guess it’s here to stay. The number of people I know who has “converted” from “normal” guns is surprisingly high. And judging from feedback from various sources, it seems an increasing number of individuals now see their bullpup as their number one airgun to go to. There could be numerous reasons for that, – however size seems to matter, and accuracy has been documented over and over again. “Fashion” may be a part of it too….

Size of market ? I have no clue. The US alone counts some 250.000.0000 individuals. If 1% should own an airgun, – we’re talking some 2,5 mill. units. Probably a bit optimistic, – but whatever way you look at it, the marketplace is obviously quite big….

Now how many bullpups have entered the US market as of now ? Again I haven’t the faintest, – but my guess is we’re still not talking more than about a couple of thousand units at the most. Even that may be a bit on the high side judging from what can be seen from forums, producers’ reports and importers’ own information. Face it, – when a shipment of 100 units becomes a big deal, – the total number of bullpups already here cannot bee enormous. My figures may be wrong, and I’m waiting to stand corrected. However in my opinion, we are far from a “saturated” market as per today….

The players in the market are so far Edgun, Kalibr and now the upcoming P12 and twins. FX is a good runner up with their BobCat, and Evanix is in there too somewhere. May be a few others…..

It is fascinating to see how the different producers play their game.

The recent price drop from AOA indicates to me that they want their slice of the cake. Whether their price-drop is meant to put individual dealers out of business by squeezing their margins and later put the price up, – or drop the price to get more volume or both, I don’t know. However the Cricket price drop is a fact, – and AOA seems to firm the grip. Now IF they have signed a sole agreement with Kalibr, – my guess is it would have been as a trade off for more volume. Now, with the new Snowpeak P12 and clones, – that volume may not be quite as easy to achieve. The Cricket people may find themselves in a squeeze very soon. If they don’t lower the price even more, – they may find the biggest lump of the volume market may be eaten by the P12 and friends. The P12 potential seems huge if they play things right (quality control, return policies etc.)

Attacking the volume market and fighting the Chinese may have some undesirable side effects in the long run. I would never underestimate the ugly and unmanageable word “perceived” value of the product. The “identity” if you like. “Perceived value” is inevitably linked to price. Now if the Cricket people ends up spiralling down prices in order to master competition volumewise, it may be good for consumers in the short run. However quality and service is bound to suffer in a longer perspective. You may end up finding very few retailers around willing to support the Kalibr team because of low margins. The above is based on the pre-assumption that the Chinese have a lower cost of production.

In short: Our beloved “Crickets” (I love mine) run the risk of being perceived as an inferior product compared to other brands. IF the Kalibr operation has signed an exclusive deal with AOA, – they may actually have signed a deal with “the devil” himself. AOA will most likely start squeezing the Kalibr operation for margins very soon……..

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if AOA suddenly flags an exclusive deal with the Chinese. If that happens, cards may be reshuffled and redealt……….

I feel really sorry for guys like WWAG/Steve and their strive for an optimum customers service and their desire to be the best. So far they are quite unique, – but for how long ????

The AOA would most probably flag the BobCat as their top of the line bullpup. At least for now. Others may come onboard (Daystate ?) and compete. Both brands carry a “perceived” value which in my opinion do NOT reflect their “real” value. I think they’re overpriced for what they really are. In the case of FX, – it is seen as rather ordinary in other markets and not as “exotic” as you see it in the US. But there again: “perceived value” is something very difficult to define…….

Now, what about Ed in all this ?

What seems obvious is that he may not sell as many of his guns into the US as one could have expected only a year ago. And quite honestly I don’t think he cares much. He has a long list of buyers signed up at home. He hasn’t invested in a long and costly production line, and he seems to want to be in the business because he thinks its fun. His products may seem overpriced by many, but unlike all others there’s a “feel” that a part of Ed himself is in the package there somewhere. And while it is true that his arrogance sucks at times ( I have seen my fair share of that), that spareparts are few, return policies not to our liking etc. etc., – he has still proved over and over again that he somewhere down the road stands behind his product and will support you until the end after all. The Edguns may in my opinion “float around” in it’s own “niche” where price may not be seen as important for a long time still. And they may continue to win 100m contests as they have in the past.

What a beautiful position to be in……….

My two cents (probably not even worth that much…….) 😳

What do you guys think will happen……?

Cheers
Trygve :biggrinn:

BullPup General Chat

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Viewing 15 replies - 31 through 45 (of 45 total)

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Yep. Cabelas, Bass Pro, Sportsman Wharehouse, Scheels etc have their airgun walls packed with super high powered Gamos and Crosman and Daisy standard line.

quote Demp223:

Hmmmmm? Who would be a big volume dealer of Chinese products here??
WALMART!!!! And they sell a lot of guns.

Exactly, – and/or the big chains for outdoor activities with no clue about guns at all……………. πŸ˜‰

Hmmmmm? Who would be a big volume dealer of Chinese products here??
WALMART!!!! And they sell a lot of guns.

Ok a half a dozen tan girls in string bikinis (or less) pictures but that is where we draw the line. 😯

quote zocoloco:

quote SECoda:

Not just that the US is 25% bigger at now 315 million. πŸ˜† Too many immigrants lately looking for the good life. πŸ™‚

I need to get my stats updated I think………. 😳

Thanks for the correction……… πŸ˜‰

As for myself and shooting right now: I’m currently in Lanzarote with no airguns around bar a few Gamos. Beaches and women though, – but that’s beyond the scope of this forum isn’t it ???? :biggrinn:

As for the P12 and friends from the PRC: There seems to be a potential for another price war between Mrod (P12) and the clone (private brand ??) from Citrus called KAM Stinger (?). That said, the Chinese were never easy to negotiate with when it comes to exclusive deals. They want volume more than anything. It’s in their blood. Unless somebody strikes a solid volume oriented deal with them, you may find there will be several importers popping up. Add to that the fact that they are good at “private branding”. The Snowpeaks may soon be found under a variety of names…..

I know. Been there, done that………… πŸ˜‰

Thanks for your comments everybody !!! :biggrinn:

Pretty good rumors that Daystate is working on or rather bringing back a bullpup. It will be interesting to see the price point.

quote SECoda:

Not just that the US is 25% bigger at now 315 million. πŸ˜† Too many immigrants lately looking for the good life. πŸ™‚

I need to get my stats updated I think………. 😳

Thanks for the correction……… πŸ˜‰

As for myself and shooting right now: I’m currently in Lanzarote with no airguns around bar a few Gamos. Beaches and women though, – but that’s beyond the scope of this forum isn’t it ???? :biggrinn:

As for the P12 and friends from the PRC: There seems to be a potential for another price war between Mrod (P12) and the clone (private brand ??) from Citrus called KAM Stinger (?). That said, the Chinese were never easy to negotiate with when it comes to exclusive deals. They want volume more than anything. It’s in their blood. Unless somebody strikes a solid volume oriented deal with them, you may find there will be several importers popping up. Add to that the fact that they are good at “private branding”. The Snowpeaks may soon be found under a variety of names…..

I know. Been there, done that………… πŸ˜‰

Thanks for your comments everybody !!! :biggrinn:

Bullpups are becoming more popular worldwide thanks to PBs like the Tavor but still a small market compared to AR and AK platform. I think pups in airgunning are even a fraction of PB versions. Just not for everyone.
Kaliber jumped all in as the Edgun (Bullpup) craze was in full effect. Even FX built one after boldly proclaiming he never would.
But let’s not forget the all important ROI factor. Kaliber had lots of financial investors backing them to make a buck in this hot market. Whole new CNC facility and multiple distributors/sellers here. They invested a lot of money to tool up guns and then flood market with a cheaper alternative to Edgun and it paid off well. We already started to see wait times for last batch of Crickets and how many distributors/sellers are left? Looks like AOA is positioning to be only one. Is production demand so high or have they peaked current market and are simply filling demand or are financials getting conservative due to risk?
Now we have the P12 coming, and Kaliber is already dropping prices to compete with what is a perceived new marketplace competitor.
How long can Kaliber satisfy its investors at its current capacity of operating costs if the P12 does in fact perform well enough that the perceived value makes the Crickets not worth even current sale prices.
They’ll be forced to sell or fold and so much for parts from then on aside from private individuals tooling up parts like Earnest.
Ed on the other hand with a smaller scale operation and I believe primarily controlled by him will be more insulated from this effect.
As any self employed individual knows your cost margins are less and your profits are higher.
He should be fine for as long as he chooses.
Just my thoughts.

Not just that the US is 25% bigger at now 315 million. πŸ˜† Too many immigrants lately looking for the good life. πŸ™‚

quote btango05:

quote dman1114:

The Chinese are fully aware that if that P12 come out of the box leaking and shooting like shit people are gonna be all over the internet bashing there product

Let’s face it the internet is a brutal place

So far I’ve seen 2 reviews about the P12….Wingman and the one Hemn posted….Both required an overhaul to get them to hold air….but it doesn’t seem to dissuade people’s anticipation of their release? That’s what I mean about perspective….why is ok to pay $700-$1000 and have a leaking gun but not ok to buy a $2000 gun and have leaks?

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and both of these guns… in fact all the guns out there at this time. have not had the issues addressed. I do believe that there is one at the IMA that is pretty much the final product.

But it doesn’t really matter anyhow as long as the end customer doesn’t get a leaking gun. Mike at mrodair I’ve spoken to a few times. I do believe that last thing he wants is to get a shitty rep selling these. they are all gonna be checked over and tested before leaving his hands.

I can see the P12 quickly becoming like the disco or the MRod……

The US is a large chunk of air gun market. And if the P12 is a winner i can see AOA squeezing in for the whole pie….. that way they can raise the prices. so the mighty FX will still sell

quote btango05:

So far I’ve seen 2 reviews about the P12….Wingman and the one Hemn posted….Both required an overhaul to get them to hold air….but it doesn’t seem to dissuade people’s anticipation of their release? That’s what I mean about perspective….why is ok to pay $700-$1000 and have a leaking gun but not ok to buy a $2000 gun and have leaks?

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I see it as a brand, country of mfg and $ spent expectation.

quote dman1114:

The Chinese are fully aware that if that P12 come out of the box leaking and shooting like shit people are gonna be all over the internet bashing there product

Let’s face it the internet is a brutal place

So far I’ve seen 2 reviews about the P12….Wingman and the one Hemn posted….Both required an overhaul to get them to hold air….but it doesn’t seem to dissuade people’s anticipation of their release? That’s what I mean about perspective….why is ok to pay $700-$1000 and have a leaking gun but not ok to buy a $2000 gun and have leaks?

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quote btango05:

I may be the only one who is not excited about the P12. It’s a matter of perspective but I’ve seen a lot of comments about if you pay $2000 for a Bobcat you should expect a perfect reliable airgun. Why do people find it acceptable to pay $700-$1000 for the P12 and basically overhaul it with new o-rings in order for it to hold air?
I doubt Kalibr is going to fall back in production or sales. But I don’t know what will happen with its dealers. Steve is a good guy and I hope he sticks around but I am the consumer and I want the most for my money…call me out on that but it’s my money.
I agree with you about Edgun. I don’t know if things are going to change regarding his customer service. I always keep in mind that different nationalities react differently than others….my point is what if his reaction to some people’s gripes are perfectly acceptable in Russia?

Any how….seems you have a lot on your mind; ) Get off the computer and go shooting! Jk…thanks for the read.

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The Chinese are fully aware that if that P12 come out of the box leaking and shooting like shit people are gonna be all over the internet bashing there product

Let’s face it the internet is a brutal place

What an interesting question Zoco, well done. I agree bullpups are here to stay but for me the only interesting airguns are accurate airguns. I enjoy the introduction of new models and players in the market, more options will help expand the hobby and for some the passion. I don’t own a Edgun, someday I would like to try the
Lelya. Ed himself seems to be somewhat of a lightning rod, saint to many, devil to others, but I think both sides must admit respect for Ed on some level.
I have watch some videos on You Tube of Ed outside of the air gun venue, interesting guy to say the least. I think he will fair well world wide with his air guns.
Personally I wish his marketing system in the US was a little more conventional, part of the charm I guess.
Equally impressive is the ability to listen to opinion of avid airgunners all over the globe, even Texas. Thanks much for your contribution Zoco, many here have learned alot.

Regards
LarryW 😎

I would agree with that especially your thoughts on a possible AOA/Kaibr deal with the devil and also the Edgun status maintaining it’s niche.

While I don’t have an R-anything, I have followed the developments of Ed’s products since just before the separate bullpup forum here. I thought I would one day get one and my days aren’t over but my first airpup will be a Cricket Compact I think. Availability and a reasonable guarantee of a great buying experience from WWAG drives that. After all, there is someone working full time right now to go thru the guns before shipping. I’m warming up to the idea of trying that Aeon scope as well, the reticle is interesting.

I owned a powderpup twenty odd years ago in the form of Steyr Aug and what I didn’t like about will not be a problem in an airgun. That was the blast resonating thru your skull and powder/lead residue being expelled an inch from your eyes.

The P12 could change things a bit in that Crosman may decide it’s time for their own offering which probably wouldn’t be regulated but would open the mainstream to bullpups. Then again they may stay traditional with the Prod.

I’m looking forward to having a bullpup again because size matters and the consistent accuracy on reg is a thing of beauty.

I may be the only one who is not excited about the P12. It’s a matter of perspective but I’ve seen a lot of comments about if you pay $2000 for a Bobcat you should expect a perfect reliable airgun. Why do people find it acceptable to pay $700-$1000 for the P12 and basically overhaul it with new o-rings in order for it to hold air?
I doubt Kalibr is going to fall back in production or sales. But I don’t know what will happen with its dealers. Steve is a good guy and I hope he sticks around but I am the consumer and I want the most for my money…call me out on that but it’s my money.
I agree with you about Edgun. I don’t know if things are going to change regarding his customer service. I always keep in mind that different nationalities react differently than others….my point is what if his reaction to some people’s gripes are perfectly acceptable in Russia?

Any how….seems you have a lot on your mind; ) Get off the computer and go shooting! Jk…thanks for the read.

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