R3M cycling making progress on smoother
I had posted pictures a few days ago about my gun feeling a little notchy as I slide the bolt forward due to having to finish aligning the magazine into the detents and what I thought I could do in making a new cam lever and changing the fit relationship between the tip of the cam and the cog on the mag. itself. Well I have cleaned and moly’ed and and shot it and it has smoothed considerably, it is fair to say I am a lot more used to it also and have an aquired nack of how fast to cycle the bolt to make the momentum carry the mag all the way to the detents now and that helps too, as it feels better when the probe does not have to finish the alignment. My testing while, non conclusive due to short range, did not show this bolt alignment cased any accuracy issues, it does feel notchy once again. Well I have finished the new parts and I think it might be a winner. But let me say that I am just cycling it with an empty mag so far this evening and testing needs to be done to prove it out. Un-fortunately I am out of time with a vacation pending until after the first of the year. So not likely do do any more work until then but here is pictures of before after and with the two levers stacked for a photo to show what I have worked on thus far. I tend to cock the 25 with a steady pull until it stops and this works every time for me dry cycling it here tonight and that is the way I like to operate this gun as I is mostly a bench gun to me. I will say that I found some comments by Ed, not sure where now, maybe my old thread, that he said he had to back off this close fit as the momentum could carry the mag to far when loaded with the weight of pellets. I will put some rounds through it and report back but so far so good. Also, just tonight, I saw in the video that was posted in, Wingman NZ’s thread about the R3 -vs- the R3m and even though it was not english that assembly fit more like my new set up when I stopped the video and looked. more testing needing done but I am this far for now.
originally delivered like this:
now like this:
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt closed position: I wanted to just TIG some stainless onto my old lever and reshape it, and save all the cost time and effort of making a new one but I just could not bring myself to start welding on my new gun. I would now that I know, basically free and believe me this was not !!
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt open position:
Link to video from Wingmans’s post. stop it and look.
Here is a snipit or screen shot from that video showing what I am talking about.
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So, you’re basically saying that Ed should make and ship out new cams for all the Multishot owners ?
OK, today’s update.
Rifle as shipped is shooting 945fps. It holds +/- 4 fps for 55 shots per fill. While a little hot this is the best shot string I’ve seen out of the box on any of the 4 Edguns I’ve owned. After about 1500 pellets and the o-rings and springs settle in I’ll turn the regulator down to the 910fps range. Accuracy at 945fps was quite good but not quite as good as my single shot R3 shooting at 915. I think lowering the velocity will tighten the groups and will certainly provide more shots per fill.
And now the really important part… magazine indexing performance with the modified indexing cam. I ran 2 tins of 350 pellets through the rifle today. Before closing the bolt on every shot I’d feel the magazine to see if it indexed correctly, under-indexed, or over-indexed. The verdict?
Perfect indexing 100% of the time with the modified cam lever regardless of how many pellets were in the magazine or how I pulled the bolt handle. :8:
After running the 2 tins through the rifle on the bench over the chrony I went out walking in the orchard looking for targets. This is where the R3M really shined IMO– I could keep my eye on the critters and run the bolt and be ready to fire without ever having to look down and load a pellet as I would with my single shot.
Now anxiously awaiting the 3 extra mags from Tony. 😀
Looking forward to RidetoEat’s update to see if his new indexing cams are producing the same excellent results I’m seeing with my modified original.
Maybe the brass washers (they are brass not copper 8mm x 1.5mm x 1mm) are used in the larger air flow .25cals but the rubber o rings are sufficient in the .22 cal?
Any one got the brass washer in their .22 R3s?
The grub screw to remove the brass collar retaining the O ring is on the underside of the forward breech..The grub screw can be removed with a right angle Allen wrench cut down very short or accessed once the forward breech is removed.
This could be on the top or side of the forward breech so only the rear section of the breech (two cap screws) would have to be removed to access it..
A CNC change is worth looking at for ease of maintenance for sure.. Ed?
I will most likely carefully drill and tap mine for a grub screw at the top side sometime.
On another note, the transfer port seal has gone back to a std rubber o ring of the ealier guns instead of the copper washer that some people have had on their newer guns.
I would like to see close up pics of the indexing cam to magazine relationship similar to what I posted with the .22 R3M as well, but with the .22 R3M magazines in-transit we might not see any information for a while.
Perfect on the breech lead-in insert being retained by a set screw, I was wondering if it was held in via press fit, retaining compound, or a set screw. I guess I should have looked closer last night when I was working on the indexing cam and answered my own question. I was hoping Ed would have used a set screw for easy servicing.
Putting the set screw on top where it is much easier to get to would be ideal, I may redrill & tap mine as well.
As a point of comparison, I noticed your breech block is anodized on the OD where it goes into the bore of the bolt housing. On my R3M the OD of the breech block that slides into the bolt housing is very smoothly machined and is a very snug slip fit into the bolt housing.
I haven’t removed my breech & barrel assembly from the regulator yet as I haven’t adjusted the regulator but I’m interested in seeing if it uses an o-ring or copper crush washer. My early R3 single shot used a copper washer and I think I have some spares on-hand if indeed my R3M has a rubber o-ring and it gives me any trouble.
Why would customs pull your gun apart and change your copper seal with a rubber O ring? I think someone has misslead you.. 😯
My early steel breech R3 has the rubber o ring and the rifle was sent with 5 spares. Ive never had an issue with this O ring and Im still using the original one with some serious numbers of shots through it!
Wingman, my going on 5 years old 22 cal R2.5 came with a copper O ring.
Well over a year ago the first shipment of 25 cal R3 longs to hit the US had the copper O rings changed in customs some where along the way and rubber O rings were substituted.
The 5-6 of us guys that got them couldn’t keep the rubber O rings in the transfer port. They kept blowing out of the transfer port and out of the barrel. I am wondering what changes Ed has made to now keep rubber O rings in the transfer port.
My 30 cal R3 has a copper O ring.
Nice work I too look forward to test results.. Has anyone found this under rotation with the new .22cals or is it only the .25cals?
The grub screw to remove the brass collar retaining the O ring is on the underside of the forward breech..The grub screw can be removed with a right angle Allen wrench cut down very short or accessed once the forward breech is removed.
This could be on the top or side of the forward breech so only the rear section of the breech (two cap screws) would have to be removed to access it..
A CNC change is worth looking at for ease of maintenance for sure.. Ed?
I will most likely carefully drill and tap mine for a grub screw at the top side sometime.
On another note, the R3Ms “transfer port seal” between the action and valve body (not the bolt probe O ring) has gone back to a std rubber o ring of the earlier guns instead of the brass washer that some people have had on their R3s..
I find my R3M trigger pull not much different from that of my R3s, – but I never measured the pull weight on the new toy. That shall have to come later as I progress.
Changing the O-ring of the forward breech is certainly going to be more difficult. There was none there on the R3, as O-rings were on the probe instead. I must admit I have not really studied the procedure quite yet. Also barrel cleaning may now become a different challenge. You neither want to ruin the crown nor the O-ring in the process……
So far I am quite happy with the R3M. It seems to break in relatively quick, – but tinkering of any serious nature will be put on hold until I’ve passed some 1500 pellets or so….. 😉
Looking forward to your reports !!!!
Cheers
Trygve 😀
I so much wish I had those skills, – but I don’t……. 😳
Keep us updated please !!!
Cheers
Trygve 😀
I will. Since I plan on doing a lot of shooting & chronographing tomorrow I decided to get the indexing cam modification done tonight. 
My current single shot .25 is tuned for about 910fps, it is extremely accurate and hits hard at that velocity. This new R3M .25 has a quieter report and impact sound level, while it hasn’t been run over the chronograph yet I’m guessing it’s shooting at about 870-880 fps by the sound of things. I’ll probably fiddle with the HST tomorrow but won’t dive into the regulator until at least 1000 pellets have gone down the barrel to wear-in the springs and o-rings.
One thing for sure, I need to get used to the trigger. The new R3M has the single-screw trigger and it’s *way* lighter than my early model R3 which has the 2-screw trigger. Honestly, I prefer the trigger on my older rifle, the pull weight on the R3M is a little too light for my taste. The feel & smoothness of the R3M trigger is quite good and is smoother than my R3 but I will probably add slightly heavier springs on both the trigger itself and also the rod that connects to the hammer. Then again, if the HST is too low the trigger pull will increase when I increase the tension on the hammer spring.
Hopefully after the initial polishing, lubing, indexing cam mod, and after some regulator & HST tweaking the R3M will manage thousands and thousands of trouble free shots like my single shot R3 and R2.5 that preceded it. I’m not totally happy that a brand new rifle needed this much “tweaking” right out of the box to run to my satisfaction– but after realizing I could correct everything on my own with relatively little effort I decided to spend my time making the rifle run smoothly & correctly rather than complain about it. However, I’m also aware others may not have the means, skills, or desire to “tweak” their rifles on their own and I can understand the frustration especially when there’s a $2000 price tag involved.
On another subject and looking well into the future, it appears replacing the breech o-rings on the R3M might be a bit of a job…
Well done !!! :8:
I so much wish I had those skills, – but I don’t……. 😳
Keep us updated please !!!
Cheers
Trygve 😀
Boredom and a TIG welder proved to be a bad combination.
I was planning on taking the original indexing cam to work, measuring it on the CMM, and making a new one but since I’m taking the next two weeks off work that would mean waiting at least 2 weeks until I could see that plan through. Since I am planning to shoot the rifle quite a bit over these next two weeks I gave in to temptation and fired up the TIG.
I built up additional material on the indexing cam where it indexes the magazine teeth and then stoned it back down as needed. Here’s pictures of the results of the final test fit & function check before final fine stoning and lapping it back totally flat and smooth.
Overall view showing indexing cam with additional material added.
Next, a closeup view of mechanism with bolt in closed position and magazine properly indexed. There is minimal clearance from the indexing cam to the magazine teeth at this position, I removed material little by little and tested for function as I went. If you leave too much material on the cam it will not drop down and engage the next tooth of the magazine or it may intermittently engage the next tooth, you want a slight bit of clearance so the cam can easily drop down and engage the next tooth on the magazine when you close the bolt. However, if you remove too much material then the magazine will not fully index when you pull the bolt fully rearwards. The angle of the cut on the cam is important too, for maximum rotation the cam has to be cut such that the engagement surface is parallel to the magazine teeth with the bolt in the closed position.
Finally, closeup view of the mechanism with the bolt fully rearward. The indexing cam with added material now rotates the magazine completely to the correct position.
After those pictures I finished the edges and magazine engagement surface progressively finer finishing with a 1000 grit stone, then I very lightly stoned all the edges to break the sharp edges, and then finally lapped the upper & lower surfaces of the cam on a piece of granite with some 1500 grit sandpaper and honing oil. I tested the modified indexing cam with about 100 shots with a mix of slow deliberate bolt action and also somewhat “snappy” bolt action– and I never observed the magazine to over-index. As delivered, the original indexing cam profile would under-rotate the mag 100% of the time with a slow deliberate pull of the bolt and it was about 50/50 split between either under-rotating or fully-rotating the mag if you used a very quick/snappy pull of the bolt.
Tomorrow will be the real test, I’m hoping to put several hundred pellets through the rifle and get it closer to the point the regulator takes a set and I can tweak it and the HST for about 910fps. I’ll be keeping a close eye on the magazine rotation and indexing but testing tonight looks extremely promising.
WOW, someone coming up with a solution!
The guy with his own self proclaimed mechanical, machining, intellectual and ethical superiority has done what?
A very good point… which now raises the question of what the next batch of .25 mags that Ed ships over might look like. He was already considering a materials change for the next batch of magazines, maybe he’ll consider a possible tooth redesign as well? Slightly redesigning the teeth, especially on the .25 mags that require the additional rotation, has the possibility of taking care of the partial-indexing problems without having to modify or replace any of the parts in the breech & indexing mechanism.
I was staring at my TIG welder last night while working in the shop and thinking bad thoughts… but the rifle survived the night in one piece. I’m planning to shoot at least 600 pellets through the rifle this weekend and based on how things go I may fire up the TIG, clamp the indexing cam in copper vice jaws, and build up a little material on the end where it engages with the magazine teeth.
Should I wait and see what Ed comes up with for a solution? Probably. Am I impatient, own a TIG welder, either own or have access to a bunch of machines, and like to experiment? Yes. 😀
I saw your post here, and un blocked to see, cause i was uncertain and I thought you were one railing againt Ed and did not even have an edgun, my apologizes to you if i was mistaken. !!! I am blocking every bitcher right or wrong as i only come here for positive commmunication about my guns of favor and have no interest in all that other childish and drivilish noise. Sorry to you again if i was mistaken !!!
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I can’t speak for the .22 R3M as I haven’t seen one up close and the current cams may work just fine for the 10 position .22 magazines… but for my particular .25 R3M I will say without a doubt the longer engagement surface on the indexing cam has fixed the issue.
One thing I will point out is Ed is right– out of the box, even though the magazine would partially index about 50% of the time closing the bolt would finish the rotation, chamber the pellet, and it would still shoot just as he said it would. It never once rotated 1/2 way and left the bolt unable to close. I didn’t notice any flyers or difference in accuracy on these under-indexed feeds.
While the rifle was functional as-shipped it didn’t sit right with me so out came the TIG as I’d prefer to have it fully index each time. Ed would probably make a lot of .25 R3M owners happy if he were to ship out replacement cams with a longer engagement area– but that’s not my decision to make. Also, I only have one rifle and one data point to go from where Ed could test on dozens of rifles. I personally would *not* ship a cam out with a tooth clearance as close as mine is with the bolt in the closed position as it may not work on all rifles because of tolerance stacking. However, a little additional material removal would probably ensure reliable function in all rifles.
Going out to shoot another 50 or so and refill the rifle. 😀