R3M cycling making progress on smoother
I had posted pictures a few days ago about my gun feeling a little notchy as I slide the bolt forward due to having to finish aligning the magazine into the detents and what I thought I could do in making a new cam lever and changing the fit relationship between the tip of the cam and the cog on the mag. itself. Well I have cleaned and moly’ed and and shot it and it has smoothed considerably, it is fair to say I am a lot more used to it also and have an aquired nack of how fast to cycle the bolt to make the momentum carry the mag all the way to the detents now and that helps too, as it feels better when the probe does not have to finish the alignment. My testing while, non conclusive due to short range, did not show this bolt alignment cased any accuracy issues, it does feel notchy once again. Well I have finished the new parts and I think it might be a winner. But let me say that I am just cycling it with an empty mag so far this evening and testing needs to be done to prove it out. Un-fortunately I am out of time with a vacation pending until after the first of the year. So not likely do do any more work until then but here is pictures of before after and with the two levers stacked for a photo to show what I have worked on thus far. I tend to cock the 25 with a steady pull until it stops and this works every time for me dry cycling it here tonight and that is the way I like to operate this gun as I is mostly a bench gun to me. I will say that I found some comments by Ed, not sure where now, maybe my old thread, that he said he had to back off this close fit as the momentum could carry the mag to far when loaded with the weight of pellets. I will put some rounds through it and report back but so far so good. Also, just tonight, I saw in the video that was posted in, Wingman NZ’s thread about the R3 -vs- the R3m and even though it was not english that assembly fit more like my new set up when I stopped the video and looked. more testing needing done but I am this far for now.
originally delivered like this:
now like this:
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt closed position: I wanted to just TIG some stainless onto my old lever and reshape it, and save all the cost time and effort of making a new one but I just could not bring myself to start welding on my new gun. I would now that I know, basically free and believe me this was not !!
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt open position:
Link to video from Wingmans’s post. stop it and look.
Here is a snipit or screen shot from that video showing what I am talking about.
……………
All Replies
Excellent work, anxious to see your pics. This would be the best solution because as the mags rolls it tries to raise the lever and disengage it before the job of delivering the mag to the detent is finished. Because the mags are so much more difficult to reproduce i am following the lever method.
I have considered the possibility , after testing that I might have to hollow grind the bottom on the lever to arch over that next coming tooth so it can stay connected longer but I don’t think is will be necessary.
All that was a long way of saying that in the a perfect world we’d like to reorient the teeth on the mag instead as a first option.
I just got done shaping the mock-up/temporary widening on the magazine’s teeth and preliminary testing shows perfect alignment in auto. By adding 1.5mm of material to the contact surface/flat area of the mag teeth, it appears there are at least two approaches which can accomplish the alignment goal: cam redesign or mag redesign. Either one eliminates the cam-mag tooth gap which has been the apparent trouble maker. One would guess that 1.5mm added to the cam blade would be the same “sweet spot”.
Since a white glue was used for this experiment, it’s easy to see what was done to the mag. I’ll post pics when I have time.
Well not exactly….. 😉
The R3M has a lever on the left side of the breech that disengages the indexing of the mag. When you push that down, – you may rotate the mag manually at your own convenience. You can cock and uncock the gun without having to think about the mag at all. Only when you push the mentioned lever up, – you’ll engage the indexing mechanism……
I just love that feature as it allows you to use the MS as a “single shot”. You just load the mag and inserts it. Then you push down the said lever and you cock the gun by pulling the bolt backwards. You then manually rotate the mag to the desired position and push the bolt back in. In this way the mag serves at a “single shot tray” with (cal.22) 10 shots. The mag alignment to the chamber is perfect. Also as said before, – you may reload the mag while inside the breech. The mag sticks out on the right hand side just enough to fully expose 3 slots. Once you see a “vacant hole”, you may insert a pellet. No need to take out the mag to reload. This approach is probably even better than a single shot tray…… 😀
The manual rotation of the mag is very simple, and it offers a sharp and defined “click” once positioned correctly…..
Some may find the manual indexing more convenient than using the bolt mechanism for a more normal MS-operation. And with good reasons as the normal ms-operation in the beginning is a bit hard/rough. Hence the brilliant work of the threadstarter, Wingman and others to try to improve it……
I follow this thread with great interest. Thanks a million RIDETOEAT !!! :8:
Cheers
Trygve 😀
The R3M can be cocked without a pellet in the chamber the same as R3 so you can still pull the bolt silently and just roll the mag I click, and close the bolt with no racket.
So if you pull the bolt all they way back it rotates the mag and that’s when the problems begin. But you can pull bolt back enough to cock it and rotate mag manually?
It was even better since I put avenger71, and his remarks, in my “foe” category!
Now all I have to read is what is truely important…your investigations, and those like you, and Ed’s kindness in following us, and giving advice from time to time.
Thanks Ed! A lot of us appreciate what you do.
H 😯 😯 t
I went back and got him, Dman and Nomadic Pirate too, they don’t have Edguns listed in their sig’s so why listen to their opinions.
This was a very informative post! Makes me wish I was intelligent!
It was even better since I put avenger71, and his remarks, in my “foe” category!
Now all I have to read is what is truely important…your investigations, and those like you, and Ed’s kindness in following us, and giving advice from time to time.
Thanks Ed! A lot of us appreciate what you do.
H 😯 😯 t
Yessir! That option is one I really like, plus you can safely have the gun loaded (not chambered), cocked, with an empty chamber/probe holding the mag in for transport; I do that all the time w/ the AA S510. Good to be able to watch the prey and not have to watch the loading procedure. Still, there were many times this summer when I really liked the fastest reload possible/auto advance.
Ride and Wingman——–I believe you hit the nail on head, the 25 cal like on mine the Mag needs a little more push on the rotation to get into the next detent, Ed was using the same part to rotate the mag on both guns .and on the 22 cal the stroke isn’t as long compared to the 25 cal ,Wingman is right , I never thought about this, the 25 cal mag holds 9 pellets , the 22 cal holds 10 ,that means on the 25 cal the stroke of the mag needs to be a little more, Just look at Eds fast shooting video, he’s really got a whole different cycle then on the 25 cal. Good work Ride,
Edgun R3M Do you know what the M stands for====== Manuel Mag Rotation Model
Lets not forget, especially for hunting you can disconnect the advance mechanism. And it is an R3 all over again WITH the convenience of having 9 or 10 shots already queued up. The R3M can be cocked without a pellet in the chamber the same as R3 so you can still pull the bolt silently and just roll the mag I click, and close the bolt with no racket. Same as R3 only no pellet fumbling with gloved hands in cold weather. I love the single load guns cause I just love basic and simple. But I think the R3M is undeniably the better hunting rifle and everyone will eventually agree.
Excellent work Ride. Please keep us posted. If you get a design that really improves the situation, I’m sure there will be others interested in getting one, as an option, if you or someone else can swing it.
We may have the same feeling about relying on momentum for alignment. Many times, when hunting, you can’t move quickly or you’ll spook your prey. Plus, after a long while, the original cam gap will not get smaller.
Thanks for taking a thoughtful, professional and constructive approach. I take my R3M out periodically and cycle it, filled and empty; either way, it’s not improving much. So, your efforts are of great interest.
The .22 needs 6 degrees less rotation each cycle so that could be a factor in how to fit it proportionately.
Reality is that the design does rely on momentum in every case and every gun as the next upcoming tooth lifts the cam lever up and and disengages it, ” looking into it upside down ” before the magazine reaches the detent. So from what I have determined it really comes down to a matter of how you want to stroke your bolt. Humm Odd choice of words. Really though if your pull through is slower and deliberate your mag can under rotate and if it is very snappy it can over rotate as they all disconnect just before the detent engagment. I don’t have .22 Mags. yet so I cant play with it. but i will say it pulls much easier due to what seems like a lighter hammer spring to overcome. So I will stroke different and likely be different. As for the .25 it is heavy on the bolt pull, Smooth now but heavy. Consequently I am never going to quickly snap it so the deliberate delivering of the mag to the detent is the best and most dependable set up. That is a lot of detail for what is always going to be a tuning issue for preference and feel.
Kilba, I don’t feel comfortable giving away the cad for a part one of Ed’s guns parts online. Believe me and it sounds like you have the competence to do so, just mod yours, and I have a few extras if you needed it. It costs a lot less.
If you want a slow dilererate pull, fit it close, maybe .015″ if you want to zing the bolt them that number is gonna be bigger and the result is going to be less repetitive. Even the remaining shot count in the mag is a factor when fitted loose and relying on momentum.
My last version of this cam will be a further modification of another one of these new ones and I am going to cope cut the bottom on the working area so it stays engaged and try that, I see the only downside as a little bump feel as it returns having to get back over the next tooth it was coped out to clear so I am not sure how that will work, better or worse. That is for after the first, holiday starts tomorrow.
Brother Hemn: If Doctor Wingman wants you to drop your pants, and then bend over so he can check you for hemorrhoids—————————–
If you feel his thumb sliding up your ass and then Doctor Wingman puts both of his hands on your shoulders—————————————
THAT isn’t his thumb up your ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If that happens———————————————-
DON’T pay for the “exam”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND also please don’t tell us about it! 😯
Just sayn! 😆
Will not shut up, even taking my right
Edward will promise
Will pay the price
Once more — let the gun break in for at least thousand shots, then disassemble it, change the lubrication and enjoy.
:4: You are exported to the national waste
How you greed Edward
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Huuhhh ??? …What ??? 🙄