WTF happened JSB ??

Very interesting and I think you are on to the truth. I wonder if JSB is aware of these discussions going on around the world on various forums about their QC issues.

Oh man, Where do I even start on this topic.. Maybe I should just leave it with that cheap shot at the Chinese Franks and beans?

First of all, Yes Ted said the smaller 5.50 and 5.51mm Head size pellets shot best in his Matador R2.5 BUT this is not the case with all rifles or even the same model of rife.. Every barrel is different and will prefer one head size over the other..

Well I will be the first to admit I know nothing about NZ’s sheep jokes but what I do know is pellets from all our favourite manufacturers are extremely inconsistently manufactured.
As a whole, JSB make some of the best pellets in the world and not many other manufacturers come close to their standards.

I guess now its JSBs turn in the spotlight…

Like most pellet makes JSB Airgun pellets are made by swaging. The pellets start as lead wire which is then pressed at room temperature into a die (swaged) that is the inverse of the desired shape.
The die itself will usually be three to four parts. The first two parts clamp together much like a mould to form the diabolo shaped outer dimensions. Some dies have a third portion for the tip of the projectile which prevents a seam forming called the inner punch. Sometimes the inner punch will have a pin hole in the very tip that allows excess lead to be extruded, ensuring uniform weight. The last part of the swage assembly is the punch which presses the lead from the rear to fill the die and forms the skirt or hollow inside of the pellet.
After the swaging process a sample of the results are inspected for quality before they are packaged by batch, head size and weight.

The irregularities you see with the lesser quality brand pellets are normally caused by badly made dies that leave seams and flashings, the skirt damage you often see is normally caused by sorting, packaging and rough handling in transportation etc.. Quality pellet makers minimise this with felt and rubber surfaces in the manufacturing and sorting/packing departments then they are packed with foam top and bottom in the tins.

JSB haven’t all of a sudden started making shit pellets, they have always made shit pellets, but the make good ones too and have always made good ones.
The problem is with the head size grading and labelling not the pellet itself.

There seems to be two slightly different inner punch dimensions on the JSB dies that make a different skirt thickness and possibly centre of gravity, the two pellets shoot very differently… My R3 shoots the smaller skirt punch with the thicker skirt the best and will stabilise a pellet from 5.47mm right up to a 5.52mm head size in this die, unfortunately I dont have any larger head sizes in this die to prove or disprove that it is a combination of head size and this rear punch shape that causes the dreaded corkscrew or just the head size alone.. All the pellets with the larger flat area in the skirt that I have tested measure 5.54mm and come from 4 different batches..

Im only guessing on this one but it may have something to do with the lead/antimony percentages and possible a more pure lead (less added alloy for hardness) pellet requires a thicker skirt so not to deform as easily? Do JSB use the same lead/alloy mix for all batches of pellets?

I buy and sort all my pellets for head size. I am an aircraft engineer with access to measuring tools that will accurately measure the head size of a pellet much like Ted uses in his video which gives me great results. I also use a set of high quality verniers that are calibrated every 6 months and I trust completely as the give me the same measurements as the the various dial indicators and micrometers etc do.

Once I find the head size and weight my particular rifle prefers I buy them to feed it religiously.
One would think by purchasing pellets marked with a batch and size sticker such as 4.52mm, 5.53mm 6.35mm etc that the contents of the tin would reflect just that… in most cases this is not the case at all. JSB offer a .22 range of , 5.51mm, 5.52mm , 5.53mm and a .177 range of 4.51mm 4.52mm and 4.53mm head sizes to best suit your individual barrels. The Head size is marked on the bottom of the tine on the yellow label.
I’m sure its not an easy task to get those tiny little mushroom shaped mixes of alloys and lead perfect every time.. what would be nice though is a better quality control and grading system at JSB that ensures the buyer that the head size on the tin resembles the contents. This however is not the case.

There are all sorts of claims on the net that the first and last “10,000/20,000” pellets from the mill runs of a pellet die are “bad batches” and buyers that vigilantly hunt for certain batch numbers that are “match worthy”, Im not sure how much truth is in that but I’m sure companies like JSB know all to well..
My school of thought is this… If they know there are bad batches not worthy of the match sticker with inconsistent head sizes etc why not sell them as a lesser quality plinker pellet just as Crosman do with their Premier and Accupell range. At least with this practice the pellet size and quality are transparent.
Well as it turns out, maybe they do.. Heres a tin of Cometa branded JSB pellets.. the head sizes were all over the show and some were very small.. the pellets were very damaged and looked like floor sweepings..

Im not sure that the skirt damage we are finding is JSBs fualt however.. I think the majority of this damage is happening in transit from rough handling.

I recently ordered 3 tins of some old stock silver label JSB 18.13gr .22 pellets in the 5.52mm head size for my Talon SS.

I was very interested to compare these to a tin of 5.52mm 18.13gr pellets a freind gave me and the tins of 5.52mm Edgun 18.1 pellets I have. These are made for Ed by JSB. Im not sure if Ed owns his own die like Air Arms and FX etc or whether the pellets are just std JSBs just relabelled for him but the differences were glaring at me. Both my friends tin and the Edgun Branded pellets are shiny and smooth without raised seems and the weights were very close tolerance. The heads are spot on 5.52 and very consistent printing very nice one holers at the tested 40m.
I then tried a few tins of a newer batch (red labeled tins) that measure up a perfect 5.52, I found the odd one at 5.53mm but they are certainly well within the normal tolerance.. most importantly they shot one hole groups, the same as the Edgun pellets in my Talon SS.

This was not the case with the newly purchased 5.52mm JSBs (with the older label) however.. the head diameters ranged between 5.48mm and 5.50mm.. the finish is rough they have a noticeable seam and the base of the skirt has a prominent raised belt on the pellet. On testing these pellets only 1 of 5 pellets hit an A4 sheet of paper at 40m!

#1 JSB Silver label #2 Edgun #3 JSB 2012 red label

So what’s happening here?
Why are these pellets getting through JSBs quality control and into the market place wearing the “Carefully Selected JSB Match Diabolo” label and graded with a 5.52mm head size sticker? Wouldnt they sell just as well if not better with a 5.50 sticker on them?

Heres what I found with my Edgun..

When my .22 EDgun R3 first arrived I tuned it to 930 because that was the word on the street.. it shot well, very well.. I didnt see one unstable pellet at all.
Then something changed.. at 50y my groups were no longer ragged holes, the pellets had some major cork screw problems. I have not changed a thing other than pellets, the barrel is always kept clean and my velocity always stayed set to 930fps. However my pellets supply did change, after shooting the first 2500 JSB 18.1 red label tins I ordered more and bought a new batch.. this is when things went bad..
This is when I found out the Spiralling pellets are directly related to head size of the pellets. I measured the older batch of JSBs at 5.50mm to 5.51mm and the new batch was 5.52mm – 5.53mm and my R3 hates them! 100% of these pellets are unstable at 930fps through my barrel.
I wound my speed down as far as 800fps and they were still unstable, not as bad as at 930fps but about 2 in 5 shots.
I purchase a 5.50 head sizing die and trailed the new batch pellets through that but that made no difference, It seems that it just took the sharp edge of the head and made even more surface area to contact my bore.. it also sized the skirts to 5.50mm which I see no advantage in doing..
I then ordered a box of 30 tins of Edgun 18.1gr pellets from the JSB factory that I found measured 5.52mm – 5.53mm and my gun hates them too.

I then remembered the tins I had cast aside of the old silver sticker 18.1 gr JSBs that measured 5.48-5.50mm that wouldnt shoot in my Talon SS!
To my surprise when I grouped them my perfect accuracy has returned and no more spiralling pellets at 930fps! In fact I have now dropped my velocity to 920fps for a slightly better chrony string and also the smaller head sized pellets upped my velocity to over 950fps! (still stable though).
This began the search for smaller head sized pellets. After a good ring around session I picked up 5 tins of the same batch number of this old stock.
I am now down to my last tin of these so recently went looking for more of the smaller head sized 18.1gr pellets.

I have just purchased more boxes of Edgun 18.1gr pellets all with different batch numbers. ( I retail theses pellets here in NZ) most batches had heads measuring 5.52 and 5.53mm but to my excitment 1 box out of the lot measured 5.50mm so I have a good supply of the diet my gun likes now and spiralling pellets are nothing but a bad memory..

Unfortunately JSB dont offer different head sizes in the 18.1gr pellet, they offer a 5.50mm 5.51mm 5.52mm and 5.53mm in the 15.89gr range and test pellet tins but only a 5.52mm in the 18.1gr pellet however the batches do vary in headsize so it is hit and miss untill you find the batch you need. (Pun intended 😆 )

So yes slowing down your velocity with a tighter fit pellet can help but there is no need to slow them down if you have the correct head sized for your bore. Ed has custom L/W barrels made with a custom twist rate and bore size (like all barrels I’m sure there is std factory variance) made especially for the 18.1gr pellet At 900-930fps so there is no need to alter that. He has done years of testing to come up with that combo and it works well as long as you find the correct head size to suit your bore. Unfortunately until JSB offer multiple head size options for that pellet weight we are stuck playing lucky dip with various batches

I know Ed says 18.1gr 5.52mm pellets are the best for his guns but I have found this isnt the case with my gun and many of yours will be similar.
Some will prefer larger head sizes and some will prefer smaller..
My Edgun bore prefers a smaller head size, 5.48mm to 5.50mm and for some reason this cant be achieved by resizing larger pellets.
My Talon bore likes the 5.52-5.53mm head sizes..
My P Rod hats JSBs and will only shoot the copper coated H/N baracuda and FTT’s (Beeman) pellets because it likes larger head sizes still.. the copper coating makes a 5.52mm lead Kodiak to 5.54mm..

You need to find the head size that suits your barrel and once you’ve found the batch your barrel likes… buy as many as you can afford because the next batch will be different for sure.

Mike, I’m currently just waiting for my 30 cal Matador to show up. I think that I will be able to just swap my 25 cal breech blocks with the 30 cal and add the Hart .257”, 28” long barrel. I’m very curious as to what the OD of the 30 cal transfer port is.

If that works out, I have an old style air valve/regulator housing that I can then have modified to the 30 cal specs and try it in the 25 cal long. If the front breech block’s transfer port OD on the 30 is larger than the 25 breech block, I can have a new front breech block made and modify it to the 30 cal spects. I want to try a TJ’s .257” barrel on it also.

Playing with the 25 cal will allow me to keep the 30 cal Matador as a pellet shooter. If JSB hasn’t had the time to fuck up the 30 cal pellets yet; I will order an ass load of them and be good to go for a few years. I want to see if the Matador prefers the 44.6 grain or the 50 grain first before I stock up. I also want to try a FX 30 cal ST barrel on the 30 cal Matador; just because. 😆

I REALLY want to have a Matador (or 2!) up and going for the 2014 Finally Extreme Benchrest this coming May!

You Guys are makeing me happier and happier that I am casting now. Shot another Group of .189″ at 80 yards last week. (I do get a flier from time to time, but I’m a lousy caster. 😳 😥 ) 😆

Just hope that OldGoat has success with his .257 EdGun Project!

Knife

Dammit Donny I cant post anywhere without you following me.. 😆
Thats not a funny video thats a drinking game we call bare bum shit face.. that girls got skills! She’s the bare bum shitface Queen!
You want to see a NZ joke? Just Google the NZ uneducated government muppets who are once again trying to change our gun laws…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN7Xux6b798

Those Kiwi’s like their sheep… 😉

JSB quality is down and AA’s quality is going in the same direction.

Not…

Good…

Someone needs to step in and provide some good pellets, I have found myself shopping for barrels in order to get these pellets to work better. Not sure it’s the solution but I have to try something. I have also been entertaining moving up to 22cal from 17 because the 22 pellets appear to be less sensitive to gyro influences or whatever is causing them to spiral at nearly all velocities. :whoop: