R3M cycling making progress on smoother
I had posted pictures a few days ago about my gun feeling a little notchy as I slide the bolt forward due to having to finish aligning the magazine into the detents and what I thought I could do in making a new cam lever and changing the fit relationship between the tip of the cam and the cog on the mag. itself. Well I have cleaned and moly’ed and and shot it and it has smoothed considerably, it is fair to say I am a lot more used to it also and have an aquired nack of how fast to cycle the bolt to make the momentum carry the mag all the way to the detents now and that helps too, as it feels better when the probe does not have to finish the alignment. My testing while, non conclusive due to short range, did not show this bolt alignment cased any accuracy issues, it does feel notchy once again. Well I have finished the new parts and I think it might be a winner. But let me say that I am just cycling it with an empty mag so far this evening and testing needs to be done to prove it out. Un-fortunately I am out of time with a vacation pending until after the first of the year. So not likely do do any more work until then but here is pictures of before after and with the two levers stacked for a photo to show what I have worked on thus far. I tend to cock the 25 with a steady pull until it stops and this works every time for me dry cycling it here tonight and that is the way I like to operate this gun as I is mostly a bench gun to me. I will say that I found some comments by Ed, not sure where now, maybe my old thread, that he said he had to back off this close fit as the momentum could carry the mag to far when loaded with the weight of pellets. I will put some rounds through it and report back but so far so good. Also, just tonight, I saw in the video that was posted in, Wingman NZ’s thread about the R3 -vs- the R3m and even though it was not english that assembly fit more like my new set up when I stopped the video and looked. more testing needing done but I am this far for now.
originally delivered like this:
now like this:
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt closed position: I wanted to just TIG some stainless onto my old lever and reshape it, and save all the cost time and effort of making a new one but I just could not bring myself to start welding on my new gun. I would now that I know, basically free and believe me this was not !!
another with the cam levers stacked for comparison in the bolt open position:
Link to video from Wingmans’s post. stop it and look.
Here is a snipit or screen shot from that video showing what I am talking about.
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All Replies
I’ll pull the breech off my rifle and get some measurements of the cam tomorrow.
It’s not a straight cut to the opposite edge exactly, I stoned the additional material to be parallel with and leave minimal clearance to the magazine teeth with the bolt closed. I think I ended up adding about .080″ but I’m not totally sure.
I’m sure you could remove a little more material and make the lever 100% drop in for all .25s but another approach would be to leave the lever a little oversize and let the end user do the final sizing to fit their particular rifle. Being that Ed appears to CNC all his breeches I bet you could cut them all to size and have them drop right in.
I am making 23.5 knots heading home with Cozemel off the Starboard side this evening as I type this and I can’t wait to get home and do some shooting.
Kiba !!! Lets compare our re-done levers by measuring off the back side of the lever to the front side of the engaugment face with calipers and see what is working for both of us. I can’t get mine till the 29th’ night when I return home or the next day. I would really like to have some comparative date as my levers I had made added .100″ to make sure there was enough material to be able to tune to optimize. I am not positive but I think I ended up leaving .070 to .080 of that. Just curious what you ended up with on total. I have had umpteen P.M’s about buying them so I may have to make more and would have the balance cut to the new spec if our #’s agree but this would not leave tuning material so I am not sure what is best.
Doug…
Just thought I’d add a 2500 pellet update…
Reworked indexing cam is still working perfectly, complete indexing of the magazine for every shot.
I also adjusted the regulator. As shipped the rifle was shooting about 945fps. However, the HST wasn’t maxed out but I didn’t test for that before the first disassembly. On my first try I adjusted the regulator down and then bumped up the HST until the velocity maxed out and it maxed out at 940fps. So I had to strip it and adjust the regulator again and on that try I got it down to 915 fps. Now it’s shooting 915 +/- 4 fps with an SD of 2 fps for 64 shots from 205-105 bar. After another 500-600 pellets I may drop the regulator a little more to get down around 905fps. The rifle is more accurate at 915fps compared to the as-shipped 945fps and gets about 10 more shots per fill.
One word of warning for the R3M users… I haven’t made a degas tool yet so I normally degas my Edgun by putting a block of wood against the back of the hammer and “burping” it with the palm of my hand. When you do this you will launch the breech o-ring into oblivion and never find it again. So, if you don’t have a degas tool to slowly drain the reservoir make sure you remove the breech o-ring first or it will remove itself when you “burp” the regulator to drain the reservoir! I’ll be making a degas tool before removing the regulator again so I can slowly drain the reservoir.
Also, to add to the conversation above, my .25 R3M came with a brass washer between the regulator and breech. My R3M has a much better brass washer than my single shot R3. The brass washer on my single shot R3 was about .015″ too thick and that not only caused the shroud to contact the knurled portion of the gauge protector up front but also caused some bolt binding. On the R3M the brass washer measures about .003″ thicker than the difference in measurements between the breech block and the regulator.
Oh that is a familiar picture 
problem is that .25 would simply blow out the rubber oring through the barrel.
The other alternative was the Teflon ring while we were waiting for the shipment of copper/brass rings from russia.
You can also use 1500-2000 grit sand paper to “fine tune” the thickness of your copper oring so it sits almost flush.
I did that to both my R3M .25 and my R3 .30 Long.
I took out the brass seal, and use a duro 90 oring. I prefer orings so you can tighten both port metal to metal not worrying about the metal seal being high/thick to prevent the two rail from matting for proper rail alignment, if metal seal are to high the metal seal will have to carry the load from the barrel support block rail and the air tube rail. or not thick enough to seal properly–> there is a question mark in my head when I don’t see the connection or proper matting when both rails are tighten down with oring it eliminate those issue. plus you have to tighten the two mounting cap screw tighter to seal metal seals–this will add more stress on those small thin cap screw.
Ernest
Is Ed Lord of The Rings? 😛
Thanks OG and Coda Re: history of missing brass O rings.. (they are actually brass not copper 8mm x 1.5mm x 1mm) I now recall reading that thread a long time ago..
The 4 R3Ms I ordered and my early steel actioned R3 all have rubber O rings and none of them have had any issues so far. When I was fitting my new R3M “kit” to my R3 I had a sudden thought that it may not work as a kit because Id read the rubber O rings had changed to brass and I thought the mating surfaces may have been machined differently too. So I took the breech of one of my complete R3Ms to compare and was surprised to see a rubber O ring in there instead of a brass one. So I just refitted the R3s std rubber O ring with the new R3Ms breech kit and it seals perfectly. I have had no issues at all with the rubber O rings vacating the barrel on my old R3 which has tens of thousands of shots through it or the R3Ms 1600-5000 shots through them..
OG – I just read that thread on the missing copper rings a few days ago. I found it on a Google search rather than a Talon search. It is still out there with you, FD, and Ted in Mad. If I can find it again I’ll post it. I just can’t imagine a shipper disassembling the guns for the copper? Ed made a comment in it about switching to Estonia to solve it.
Update: This YF thread links to the Talon threads you are referring to.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1321393811/Edgun+Matador+-22+louder+than+expected+w-+puff+of+air+at+breech—
“by Ed » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:54 pm
Sorry guys, as I was afraid while crossing the border the guns were disassembled and the courier lost the brass ring (for .25 it should be installed brass ring). I see two options, first one — give me your post address and I will send the brass rings to yuou, the second just make it with the lathe, the diameter is 8 mm, the hight is 1.5 mm, the thickness is 1 mm.
Sorry for that, it will not happen in the future since we began assembling in Estonia.”
The original cam installed in the .22s by ED seems to work just fine, – at least in the MK I model. I have yet to hear about indexing problems for the .22s. The new mags may be a bit different in the MK II version, – but I would imagine for the better…… 😀
Indexing may be a bit “stiff” in the beginning, – but becomes much better after a few shots……..
Cheers
Trygve 😀
Thanks, Zoco. I have a MK1 model and good to hear your megs working fine. Seem that the cam is made for .22 only. Ed may need to send .25 cam to replace all. not to ask all .25 owners to make change themselves. keep eyes on new improvements.
Kiba and Ride are on the right track and hopefully someone will come up with a part that Ed can mail out, or at least a member can make available. On the original/stock R3M .25, I can tell by the paint wear on my magazines that the indexing cam is not striking parallel on the mag teeth. Incorrect indexing is bound to create wear as the metals rub.
Here’s a picture of what I was posting earlier-a “shoe” was added, effectively making the mag teeth larger on the cam-striking side. This is a temporary, white glue, used because it’s fast and removable, not a lasting fix. It was fast to cut and experiment with different dimensions. Epoxy would be a better shoe material.
About 1.5mm was added to five teeth and improved indexing to where the mag’s detents were clicking into position properly. Myself, I’m hoping someone will make a cam blade that results in smooth, reliable indexing and makes it available to correct the inherent flaw. Yes, accuracy is fine as shipped, but the bumpy feel of the indexing makes it difficult to feel if something does not line up correctly. When a indexing system is smooth, it’s a lot easier to tell when something isn’t right. I have more concerns than accuracy, as do all of us trying to solve the problem, and it is a problem as far as how the shooter perceives the indexing.
If no one comes up with a cam fix which is available to all that need/want it 😥 Then I’m going to use a more durable material to add shoes to the mag teeth. I do not have machining tools, but there are a pile of epoxies and different adhesives in the fridge.
I’m hoping Kiba and Ride can share info and maybe swap detailed drawings/outlines with measurements to get closer to the ideal design. I’ll gladly try out/buy a cam and report on how it works. I’m guessing if it works in one gun, odds are good it’ll fix all the .25s with issues.
In this case, the quest to make things better is a noble cause. Thank you!
Wingman, the first 25 cal R3 longs that came to the US had a rubber O ring. There were only 5 or 6 25 R3 longs in the first shipment to Tony. None of us could keep the O rings in the transfer port. After we went thru the extra rubber O rings that Ed sends with the gun, we tried O rings that we could find locally.
They didn’t work either. The stock or after market O rings would only last for a couple of shots and then, BLAMM! Damn, that thing is REALLY loud without a transfer port O ring of any kind!
I sourced some PTFE (Teflon) O rings locally that needed the ID drilled out with a #7 drill bit to work in the transfer port. They held and sealed.
I sent some out to the other guys that got the first 25 cal R3s.
We started a topic here about the rubber transfer port O ring blowing out and Ed posted the explanation.
I tried to do a quick search for the topic and I couldn’t find it. Maybe F&D will help out.
IIRC; Ed had trouble exporting Matadors out of Russia so; he tried using a shipper that said that he could get the guns shipped. The guns were sent whole to the shipper and either the shipper or customs disassembled the 25 cal R3 longs and either lost the copper O rings or just substituted rubber ones.
I do remember Ed posting that the 25 cal R3 longs were supposed to have a copper O ring in the transfer port and Ed sent Fast & Dangerous enough copper O rings to supply all of the 5-6 guys that got the first 25 cal R3 longs.
I have owned a 22 cal R2.5 standard, a 25 cal R2.5 long, a 22 cal R3 long, a 25 cal R3 long (with the misplaced copper O ring) a 25 cal R3 standard and a 30 cal R3 long. All of them have come with a copper O ring except for the 25 cal R3 long that was intended to have one.
Any one got the copper washer in their .22 R3s?
I have a 177 that has the metal washer (R3 with the aluminum action and the single screw trigger).
I think the metal washers were lost in shipping/disassembly (they fall out and you may not even notice), during the reassembly process someone likely substituted rubber o-rings if the metal washers were not present.
The original cam installed in the .22s by ED seems to work just fine, – at least in the MK I model. I have yet to hear about indexing problems for the .22s. The new mags may be a bit different in the MK II version, – but I would imagine for the better…… 😀
Indexing may be a bit “stiff” in the beginning, – but becomes much better after a few shots……..
Cheers
Trygve 😀
Great news. :8: :8: :8: You’ve shut down a lot of arguing that recently bothers the lots of members here. I hope the cam works for 10 shot megs.22 that we are waiting for.
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Ya, same here, I made mine square up upon initial contact as the forces would be highest with the breakout force of releasing from the detents then it is almost all no load and coasting to the next detent stop.
Did you notice as well that there is relatively no contact between the cam lever and the bed below it as it rides up on the round shape of the mag. and lifts off the bed as it strokes and then just snaps back into place at the resting point as it falls over the next tooth to be pushed upon. I polished the faces of my first new cam but later realized the only real functional area was the inside track for the bolt guide and the mag contact face on the mag tooth. I lubed the bed but there was no real shear friction between the two areas in the lube pattern observed after cycling 100 rounds.