Benjamin Rogue Bullshit detector ringing!
Does anyone here have a Rogue? Please don’t be bashful, I’m not trying to belittle anyone or call them out for anything. I just want to get some actual information from someone who bought a Rogue retail and hopefully can shoot worth a damn!
As far as I can tell, Crosman (via Chip) has backed off on initial performance claims (though in a mealy mouthed way) and are now all about versatility.
Crosman appears (to me) to have delighted in all the pre-release hype on the airgun forums but is now claiming the lack of any positive reports via airgun forums to be because they market the gun to PB guys.
There are claims that hundreds of guns have been sold and yet the buyers are strangely silent. Oh yeah, the PB guys that bought this gun would never think to ask airgunners about all that airgun stuff like tanks, fills per tank, where to get fills, best prices, best gear etc… no they get all that info from Crosman… a company with one big bore to it’s credit. Right.
I was a defender of Crosman when they announced the Rogue and still appreciate the guts to move into a new market with new technology. In fact, I’d be proud of a company that did that and failed on the first attempt! Taking a risk and losing reveals a far stronger character and work ethic than playing it safe and having mediocre success.
But now, I smell BS and I hate that! I’m not saying that new tech is suddenly bad or even that the Rogue is a bad gun, I’m saying that Crosman appears to have let bogus initial claims stand despite knowing the actual product didn’t deliver per hype. The so called “actual” performance is not well defined but doesn’t appear all that bad (energy numbers only), but it’s not close to original hype.
Way back when, it was claimed that the gun would get 20 shots at 150 FPE and 4 shots at 250 FPE. Yeah, now the gun gets 21 shots at 133 FPE (not badf at all) and 3 shots at 195 FPE. The 21 at 133 doesn’t fall that far short but 3 at 195 is a damn far cry from 4 at 250! The latest explanation from Chip (Crosman’s rep) is not satisfactory. He claims that the initial claims were based on different weight bullets. Right, a gun that shoots 175gr bullets at 250 for 4 shots can only manage 195 with 170gr bullets for 3 shots… I might have been born on a rainy night but it wasn’t last night! Shit, I’ve got more big bores downstairs than Crosman has even seriously considered but they are going to tell me (and you) what’s what?
I’m also curious about Crosman’s claim via Chip that this gun is intended to bring hunters to airguns vice airgunners to hunting. Sounds like a BS strategy to me. You can’t get a airgunner to like the gun but maybe a guy who knows no better will? Let me get this straight, sell a gun that needs air tanks and fittings and fill sources etc to a PB guy and ignore the guys that already have all the gear to support the gun? Yeah, ignore the guys that already have all the gear and are used to the hassles that airguns bring but focus on PB guys that can buy super consistent ammo from big guys or custom reloaders? Got it. It’s a good thing the Rogue only costs double what a match grade varmint rifle with a tax stamp for a silencer would cost!
OK, maybe I’m totally f’d up here, it’s happened before! So, does anyone have a link to a PB site where the Rogue is reviewed by an actual customer? Has anyone in Crosman’s self declared target market actually posted any results? Really, after hundreds of sales to these hunters that routinely post on topics like head space measurements, best powder loads, best powder types, effects of temperature on powders, bullet designs, and every other esoteric thing you can imagine about shooting, shouldn’t there be a few easily found reviews?
BTW, I did notice that Jim (echochap) has a wonderful specimen that his buddy can shoot little groups with off-hand. Yeah, my BS detector has not been silenced! This is where I gather some hate mail… Jim has a habit of going quiet on guns that suck. He also has a habit of ignoring great guns that don’t pay his way. If he ever manages to “find the time” to gather actual numbers on the Rogue, they will probably be reported accurately. However, if the numbers and accuracy are crap, I doubt we’ll ever know that he found the time…
So, I’m looking for retail customers that Crosman was unaware of to relay actual results! Has anyone besides the Crosman team shot anything with a Rogue?
All Replies
BTW, has anyone read the Crosman application guide regarding hunting? I’m not looking at it now but I recall something along the lines of being able to hit a quarter 10 out of ten times defining max range for the shooter. The Rogue is a 100+ yard gun but maybe you fellows can’t live up to it! Haha!
Shit. I’ve yet to see an unbiased report that the rogue can hit water after being dropped from a boat.
Thanks. I think I’m already there. Need to put the valve back in the 62 ci tank instead of the 25 ci I test with.
Dude! Get 10 shots at over 200FPE and Chip will call you a “breakthrough” and you should get $4500 just for the freaking valve!
RC, yeah, you called it. I’m still hopefull for the technology but the BS hype just pisses me off.
The Rogue didn’t have to go over the moon to be a good gun or even to be a significant gun. The BS hype and defensive BS will relegate it to an also ran though…
So if I get this valve thing figured out and can get 10 shots over 200 fpe I could sell them for $1500.00 😀
Jerry, Tof, Syn,
What your seeing is the circling of the stinkbug before it goes down the drain.
I called this bullshit the first morning that BB spread his game changer shit on the Pyramyd forum.
I took some shit for it too both here and on the Yellow.
Then there was the shoot them in the head because it does not have enough power to kill them with a body shot fisco and it must be okay becasue all these “Proffesional hunters said so.”
Echoclap is cut from the same Chip/Crosman cloth IMHO.
I think most of them hunt with a bucket of grain.
RC
LOL. u go boy!
BTW, if past is prologue, all the above will be ignored until Crosman can claim that a 195FPE airgun is “breakthrough” technology again.
As anyone who was around when the Rogue was still about to be released and shortly after knows, I was a big fan. I still am in a way. I think the gun has some great attributes and the technology has great potential. Heck, I think the performance is pretty good, even if not up to the initial hype/claims.
I’m more than a little pissed though when anyone who notices the hype was BS gets called out as a cynic or non-believer…
Yeah, those PB converts are a huge educated market us trogliodites just don’t understand….
That’s right Ced, you just don’t know how to shoot. It’s OK, you’re just an ignorant airgunner. Oh wait, you have a bunch of PBs? Well, you must still be wrong!
Airgunners just don’t know how to handle this level of performance. Really, 195 FPE, what airgunner could be familiar with that level of power? (I’ll just pretend that the 800+FPE my Yukon gets on one shot isn’t higher than a whole fill of a Rogue…)
Oh, I’ll pretend I’m not familiar with M240 machine guns or M4 rifles or M16s(old school now) or GAU 17s etc… Yeah, I’m a complete newbie! Crosman can tell me anything and I’ll compare it to what they want and be impressed! Those guys are the boss! The Rogue rules! OMG, 3 shots at 190+FPE, nobody’s done that since the Dragonslayer! Awesome!
Yep, ABSOLUTELY DUMB to market a BB gun to ONLY PB’s. Especially when you have a whole slew of us who would have bought into the ROGUE if it were better built and represented better. We are the MAJORITY of the market. We are AIRGUNNERS. Really, ignore airgun enthusiast and go right for the IMPOSSIBLE market! WOW! The other thing i like is how the experts still say that, the original bad post about the ROGUES were from guys who did not know how to put the Rogue in a proper vise. That one still chokes me up. Guess i was one of those guys who shot that gun and had it in a BAD GUN VISE while shooting it 😉
Fucking DUMB, Fucking DUMB. How did he get that job?
bennee,
I agree, Chip sounded dooshish! I’m pretty damn sure he won’t come here to dispute that too. There are no rules here to protect him or Crosman from painful questions. At most forums they could hide behind their interpretation of the rules and claim bashing etc. but here they would have to put up or shut up… not going to happen!
Just to be sure that this post appears on Crosman’s and Chip’s radar: here are some key words… Crosman, Benjamin, Benjamin Rogue, Crossman big bore, Benjamin .357, Bejamin POS, Crosman Hype, Hunters for POS airguns, stupid shooters, ignorant hunters, bigbore newbies, dummies with dollars, stoneage PB shooters, pissed off benjamin customers,
Syn,
Good points all around! My only comment would be that $2000 is a low ball cost to get started with in airguns with a Rogue. The Rogue alone costs 1500 and a tank worth a shit plus fittings and other BS adds up quick!
It’s pure BS that Crosman has discovered a bunch of incurious PB shooters with tons of disposable income that appreciate poor performance and unfullfilled promises! Oh, they just LOVE high priced ammo that is inaccurate to boot!
Well…I only have a 10″ dick and 5 supermodel girfriends but I get where you’re coming from!
Yeah, I love the fact that the claims from Crosman (Chip) are irrefutable. “They ask us” was the reply to why there is no traffic on the forums. Right, I’ll believe that when Gisele swallows….
A little bit of hype as in saying something good is really good is OK in my book. I don’t expect anyone to market their product with “ABOVE AVERAGE!” as a slogan, but pure horseshit is just that… “We’re F’ing awesome but the guys that know won’t say so” is not a good slogan!
One thing that really pisses me off is the fact that Chip and Crosman seem to have decided that PB varmint hunters are somehow superior and a better market than the airgunners that have done this for years. Really? If Crosman were to build a 6mm tack driver PB, I could understand going to that market for sales and support. But, they built a low end airgun and figure PB shooters are the market and airgunners are irrelevent. Got it.
Last time I found myself at the same range with PB shooters, they came over to see how we were shooting so damn good… I’ve had a number of PB shooters do very well shooting my airguns but I’ve NEVER had one of those guys challenge me to a contest with their gun or any other PB. Why? Because they know damn well where the challenge lies! PB shooters are not dumb or ignorant. Apparently Crosman or Chip wants us to think they are….
LOL! I saw that post Jerry. Chip is a bs’er big time. Actually he sounded dooshish. Not good customer service or PR for that company. Tof you buddy was right!
Versatility? Like being able to leak and poorly load rounds into the barrel? Ok, enough of the bad jokes…
If I step back and think of this as a PB hunter/ target shooter here is my take.
For the $2000 or more entry cost for the rifle, tank etc. i’d buy a REALLY nice PB for hunting or targets first.
Plus, not many states allow the taking of game with airguns. Traveling with air tanks via plane is a pita too.
I would also look at forums to see what the word was. I know i’ve searched high and low for info on PB rifles that were around $600, less than half the entry price for the Rogue rifle alone. It’s not very hard to find other airguns that work better at the hands of actual users using delivered customer production rifles and not specially made advertising rifles on any of the existing and open forums. I also don’t see why a PB owner that is a member at other forums wouldn’t poke in and join AG forums to ask questions or seek help.
From what I have seen there has been no representation of the cross over crowd on AG forums to date…
I’d also be a bit put off by the fact that Crosman sells a sub $600 rifle as their next item priced below the Rogue. Air guns don’t have that great of a reputation with PB folks and with claims that even those familiar with air guns didn’t even believe I can’t see how this rifle would attract a large cross over crowd. PB is so much easier to get right and for $1500 I could get a really nice PB.
And do you really think any PB owner would plunk down $2000 to see if those claims were true? Not me.
Having wasted a perfectly good $150 on a piece of shit cheap as hell Crosman pistol (that I had to fix to get it to keep the bolt closed and what I saw inside was shameful) I couldn’t muster the trust to spend ten times than on an unproven bigbore rifle that looks like it is made of plastic.
No updates or ‘improved’ model at the ShotShow from what I have seen. And absolutely zero word from Chip to ANY questions on the Yellow, as if they don’t give one shit about actual airgun users or potential buyers, I think they lost a few potential buyers on the way they handled things on the Yellow.
But, I hear ya, i’m disappointed with how they have handled the questions and claims aspects of the whole thing as well.
I’d like to buy a Crosman product (a pistol for FT) but just can’t do it and will probably end up spending twice what I could if I went with them on something else that I know has quality and accuracy.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
BTW, (while I’m on my freaking rant) has anyone noticed that our self proclaimed experts have no “time” to actually do a full and complete test?
My obvious example is echochap (or echoclap as RC posts 😆 ). Here’s a guy that has time to go hunting just about every week it seems according to his posts but can’t find time to actually get the info us mortals gather on the guns we pay cold cash for. Yeah, he can pick half a dozen or so guns, sight them in and go to South Africa to shoot game but he just can’t quite get the time to run a chrony string on the breakthrough gun from Crosman!
Yeah, I saw the targets he posted. Big freaking deal! I posted a target at 43 yards where I put 3 .32s through a hole that a .308 wouldn’t fall through. Ya’ll didn’t go beg to buy that gun did you? And, most of you know I’m not BS’ing.
It took me one session (after working a real job all day) to get BC data on several slugs and share the info online. A few days later, I repeated the sequence at higher velocities, presented the data and noted the differences. Somehow, my duties testing aircraft interfered with my going to Africa and interfering with posting real info…
Ever get the feeling you’re getting played? Does it feel like you get a little good news with more to follow but the follow-up is late in coming?
Ever notice a gun with a bad rep get talked up by an “expert” without any evidence? Ever feel like the “expert” was saying “trust me” without saying anything you could hold him to? How about…”it sure looks like a tackdriver to me, I’ll have a full report and details the second of never.”