Benjamin Rogue Bullshit detector ringing!
Does anyone here have a Rogue? Please don’t be bashful, I’m not trying to belittle anyone or call them out for anything. I just want to get some actual information from someone who bought a Rogue retail and hopefully can shoot worth a damn!
As far as I can tell, Crosman (via Chip) has backed off on initial performance claims (though in a mealy mouthed way) and are now all about versatility.
Crosman appears (to me) to have delighted in all the pre-release hype on the airgun forums but is now claiming the lack of any positive reports via airgun forums to be because they market the gun to PB guys.
There are claims that hundreds of guns have been sold and yet the buyers are strangely silent. Oh yeah, the PB guys that bought this gun would never think to ask airgunners about all that airgun stuff like tanks, fills per tank, where to get fills, best prices, best gear etc… no they get all that info from Crosman… a company with one big bore to it’s credit. Right.
I was a defender of Crosman when they announced the Rogue and still appreciate the guts to move into a new market with new technology. In fact, I’d be proud of a company that did that and failed on the first attempt! Taking a risk and losing reveals a far stronger character and work ethic than playing it safe and having mediocre success.
But now, I smell BS and I hate that! I’m not saying that new tech is suddenly bad or even that the Rogue is a bad gun, I’m saying that Crosman appears to have let bogus initial claims stand despite knowing the actual product didn’t deliver per hype. The so called “actual” performance is not well defined but doesn’t appear all that bad (energy numbers only), but it’s not close to original hype.
Way back when, it was claimed that the gun would get 20 shots at 150 FPE and 4 shots at 250 FPE. Yeah, now the gun gets 21 shots at 133 FPE (not badf at all) and 3 shots at 195 FPE. The 21 at 133 doesn’t fall that far short but 3 at 195 is a damn far cry from 4 at 250! The latest explanation from Chip (Crosman’s rep) is not satisfactory. He claims that the initial claims were based on different weight bullets. Right, a gun that shoots 175gr bullets at 250 for 4 shots can only manage 195 with 170gr bullets for 3 shots… I might have been born on a rainy night but it wasn’t last night! Shit, I’ve got more big bores downstairs than Crosman has even seriously considered but they are going to tell me (and you) what’s what?
I’m also curious about Crosman’s claim via Chip that this gun is intended to bring hunters to airguns vice airgunners to hunting. Sounds like a BS strategy to me. You can’t get a airgunner to like the gun but maybe a guy who knows no better will? Let me get this straight, sell a gun that needs air tanks and fittings and fill sources etc to a PB guy and ignore the guys that already have all the gear to support the gun? Yeah, ignore the guys that already have all the gear and are used to the hassles that airguns bring but focus on PB guys that can buy super consistent ammo from big guys or custom reloaders? Got it. It’s a good thing the Rogue only costs double what a match grade varmint rifle with a tax stamp for a silencer would cost!
OK, maybe I’m totally f’d up here, it’s happened before! So, does anyone have a link to a PB site where the Rogue is reviewed by an actual customer? Has anyone in Crosman’s self declared target market actually posted any results? Really, after hundreds of sales to these hunters that routinely post on topics like head space measurements, best powder loads, best powder types, effects of temperature on powders, bullet designs, and every other esoteric thing you can imagine about shooting, shouldn’t there be a few easily found reviews?
BTW, I did notice that Jim (echochap) has a wonderful specimen that his buddy can shoot little groups with off-hand. Yeah, my BS detector has not been silenced! This is where I gather some hate mail… Jim has a habit of going quiet on guns that suck. He also has a habit of ignoring great guns that don’t pay his way. If he ever manages to “find the time” to gather actual numbers on the Rogue, they will probably be reported accurately. However, if the numbers and accuracy are crap, I doubt we’ll ever know that he found the time…
So, I’m looking for retail customers that Crosman was unaware of to relay actual results! Has anyone besides the Crosman team shot anything with a Rogue?
All Replies
Well I am sure that I am one of the ones that Echoclap was refering to.
I made no bones about the fact that I did not think Crosman could pull off the manufacture of a rifle as complicated as the Rogue, and folks it is indeed a compicated gun.
I think FX or Daysate or Evanix could have, but lets face it, Crosman makes inexpesive guns for people who for the most part do not even shoot them on paper,
Sure a lot of you guys do and you work hard with your “Rods” and Disco’s, I have done some of that also, but for the most part the inexpensive guns they have made in the past and make now are indeed just backyard plinkers.
I suspect most buyers of Crosman guns don’t own a chrony and just plink at tin cans with their 417’s and now the ultimate sacrilege M14’s, gawd how could they do that to a M14?
But I regress, the Rogue was too complicated for a company that has trouble making a consistant product as complicated as the MRod and doing it with consistant accuracy.
I have stated this in the past and it is true today, Corsman is after the almighty dollar, they know most customers will not return their junk to the excellent service team that crosman has so that they can be sent more junk.
The “‘Rod’ barrel issue that they took so long to resolve is a case in point if not the classic example of their junk sales, with no expectation of fixing a flaw they always knew about they kept pumping out flawed barrels. Who but Crosman has spurrnd a cottage industry just to replace their junk barrels?
And now this latest bullshit from Chip and Echoclap chorused with the choir from GTA, what did you expect?
But anyway one more thing…..
I fuckin told you so!
Regards,
Roachcreek
Pretty much……this rifle has demonstrated very little. The small amount of info out there only leads to more questions (and also demonstrates that the hype and claims were for the most part bullshit).
So the data that has been released on the Rogue is right up there with the data on Big Foot and UFO’s?…. 😛
Started out with that approach…..then an onslaught of convolution ensued, with the “dumber half” beginning to buy into it, and confuse themselves (with Jim’s guiding hand, of course).
When forced to address a relentless onslaught of convoluted bullshit (ie Jim Chapman, Chip from Crosman, sheeple, etc), typing a lot is called for. Not enjoyable….just called for.
Maybe or something like this might do.
“Dear Mr Chapman and Crosman Corporation,
Please withhold all hopeful thinking marketing and provide only testable data on the Rogue.
Any other hyperbole should be kept to yourself because we just do not care to entertain it.
If you remain silent on the data we will assume “If you can not say something nice then say nothing at all”.
If is sucks please remain silent. If it is good please provide the data requested.
Thank you
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :tag: :tag: :tag: :tag: :tag: :tag: :9: :9: :9: :9: :9: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :11: :11: :11: :11: :11: :whoop: :whoop: :whoop: :whoop: :whoop:
When forced to address a relentless onslaught of convoluted bullshit (ie Jim Chapman, Chip from Crosman, sheeple, etc), typing a lot is called for. Not enjoyable….just called for.
Nice distillation Wok. BTW, can you change the avatar to some booby grab? That de-skinning is just …yuk.
Despite all the endless typing (guilty as charged), I think the negative press is forcing some actual info. I agree, the whole thing could be laid to rest in a day with a customer gun.
They locked down the thread and moved it to a non production area.
The people who participated in that thread sure like to type.
Let me show you how it should have gone down.
Crosman Corp and fans make claims about the Rogue.
Airgun community requests data and facts on the claims made.
No valid answer with data and all you get is
This debate is very silly since the gun actually exists and all the data requested could be compiled in ONE MORNING of shooting.
When they do not provide actual factual data it is because the truth will decrease sales.
Time for them to put up or shut up.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,26878.0.html
get your reading glasses on, and sit down with some snacks 😆
You have to be registered to read thread. 🙁
yep… and it was a FUCKIN pain in the ass!!!!. the funny thing is I was a member there at one time. I can’t say I remember pissing anyone off, but you all know me… I taint afraid to put someone in there place when need be, so I most likely did at some point 😆
if anyone wants I’ll cut and past it either some were here on the forum or in a p/m to whoever wants to read it, just be warned that it is 3 very long pages…
someone speak up as to what you all want, and I’ll get on it :party:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,26878.0.html
get your reading glasses on, and sit down with some snacks 😆
You have to be registered to read thread. 🙁
WOK, what’s with the avatar? What is that?
here ye go WoK
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php/topic,26878.0.html
get your reading glasses on, and sit down with some snacks 😆
Is there a thread on the GTA about this?
If so throw up a link
You’re right Synopsys, Jerry too. You belong an that list also Synopsys, (Mr. Mac-1 sexy FT gun owner…drove-down-to-pick-it-up-in-person), as does WOK, Tony, Pabs, Slayer, Saw, Hoot, etc.. I guess my point is that there is a high concentration of guys here who can pick up an airgun and give an honest evauation. We are the people who buy expensive airguns and shoot targets, or hunt with them. When I shot the rogue, I was so disappointed that I just didn’t say anything. (If you can’t say anything nice then don’t say anything at all). I wanted to hear what others thought of it. That’s why I arranged a second outing to give Tofaz an opportunity to try it out. He’s a much better shot than I. …and he makes those great videos.
I don’t care what anybody says, regardless of which forum, it’s guys like us who are the market! It’s shameful that other forums censor honest reviews and evaluations. Again, thanks WOK, and Tony for supporting our First Ammendment rights.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
I really gave it some thought regarding if I should apologize for being rude. I thought maybe I had gone too far and had to decide if my ego was getting a hold of my mouth. After that reflection, I won’t be apologizing to anyone about my posts on the GTA.
I believe my initial offense was correct in that JC was treating me and all others that referred to opinions and reports other than his own as fools or targets. I believe my replies were justified and supported by the facts.
The only reason you got shut down, is because you allowed Jims’ tactics to invoke an (understandable) emotional, personal response (ie frustration and anger)…which approached attacking Echo himself rather than his piss-poor argument.
I believe it was Jims’ intent to provoke that from you from the start.
The mods didn’t want that to escalate on their civilized, family friendly forum, so they nipped it in the bud by shutting you down.
The 14day ban was IMO uncalled for, seeing as you were obviously being provoked by Echo’s refusal to engage in intelligent conversation. Thankfully, I don’t think they deleted anything you said, though (did they)?
The thread was hardly “non-productive”, so I see the moving of it to that section of the forum as being another error in judgement.
I guess they can’t all be the TAG.