Condor 308
I’ve been testing my R&L Condor in 308 caliber that I got a couple of weeks ago. I’m using a EtacHPA and a 68/4800 Carbon fiber tank, so it’s a completely different setup than their normal 308.
I first started out testing a 52 grain bullet and saw over 37 to 40 shots on low power wheel setting and starting at 2700psi with speeds from 840fps-860fps-840fps.
I adjusted the PW to a higher setting after the first 20 shots for 8 shots back in the 860fps and turned it back down for 12 more shots between 840 and 860 before dropping to 820fps at 1800psi. I was wasting air when I turned the PW up, so I should try it again without touching it.
I finally was able to get a shooting area set up in my shop over the weekend and after 80 shots at 2500psi to 2000psi to had an idea of how the power wheel and top hat effected the speeds.
3000psi looks good and I may get a nice shot curve at 3200psi.
——————–
3000psi
PW setting of 8-0
52 grn
989.5 (113.08 fpe)
1021
1021
1019
1024
1014
1020
1025
1001
1029 (122.29 fpe)
1006
1002
994.9
1001
995.6
989.6
1014
992.6
997.6
988.0
988.5
981.7
983.7 (111.76 fpe)
978.9 (2000psi)
——————–
3000 psi
PW setting of 8-0
124gr
806.6 (179.18 fpe)
800.3
x
806.7
x
x
x
816.7
808.7
815.2 (183.02 fpe)
789.2
x
x
x
788.1
820.6 (185.46 fpe)
x
775.7
760.5 (2000psi)
——————–
Available amount of air for the Standard Condor tank is 490 CC
29.90ci x 3000/14.7 = 6102.04 ci /1728 = 3.53 CF = 99,958.468 cc
For my Carbon Fiber tank..
68×3000/14.7 = 13877 ci / 1728 = 8.03 CF = 227,384.278 cc
68×4500/14.7 – 20816 ci / 1728 = 12.05 CF = 341,218.001 cc
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One thing that makes my setup different besides the amount of air is that I am using the EtacHPA and the direct amount of the air flow is different.
This should give you an idea of the available space in front of the valve and spring seat. Measurements may not be exact, but as close as I could get them.
One change I did between my two test was to polish the spring seat and add a bevel to the spring seat opening as well.
This image is after removing some material and beveling the edge.
This is after I polished the spring seat.
My next test will be to make a new spring seat that takes up less room in the Etac’s air chamber.
This should either give me the amount of air I need to break 200fpe or slow me down because of the added amount of air needed to fill the chamber up before entering the valve.
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Interesting information—-keep it up. Here are some random observations of mine:
Jerry’s 9 ring slugs are super long yet they stabilize perfectly in my LW barrel.
When I fire Aguila SSS rounds in my old Remington Nylon 66, about every third bullet keyholes in the paper target. Those bullets are 60 grain and not nearly as long as a 9 ring slug.
Thanks Tofazfou,
Nice 10-22!!
Even in the GP world it sounds like your experience with the Aguilar was different than other people have experience with their 1 in 9″ twist. It still comes down to each individual gun and what it likes and doesn’t like. Not that far off topic Slow since we have the same issues in the air world.
I wondering if the 1-16″ is just over stabilizing the shorter bullet and the power needs to be turned way down to stabilize at this twist rate.
I’ll try some lower pressure test and slower speeds with the sized roundballs and 75 and 90 grain bullets and see what I get.
Tofazfou,
thanks for the input. Nice .22, btw. And we’re going OT here, but what the hey.
The Aguila SSS is a tricky one. I’ve only seen them stabilize out of Russian TOZ .22 rifles, with a twist of ~12″. With the common 16″ twist of .22 lr, the long and heavy bullets just don’t stabilize, making the use of a suppressor impossible. When in the subsonic territory, the length of the bullet is at least as much of a factor as the weight in wether or not the projectile stabilizes.
With firearms, I’ve had 200gr .30 bullets fly perfectly at just under 1000 fps from a barrel with 9.5″ twist, and 150 gr bullets at the same speed from a 12″ twist barrel. So obviously in airgunning there are other factors at work.
Twarr,
ON A SIDE NOTE: I have the 1-9 twist rate in my 22lr and the 60 gr Aguilar SS ammo sucks more than it did with my 1-16 barrel. It does OK with the 1-16 barrels in 2 different guns. Just don’t think that ammo is all that great anyways and it moves much slower than advertised. About 100 FPS slower at least in my gun. But it does hit, WHEN IT HITS..lol. The 1-9’s are really good with the 40 gr SUB SONIC HP ammo’s out there which is what it was made for. Mine loves the CCI SS HP’s. I think there is something there with the SLOW and LONG Bullets for caliber and slow vs fast twist rate. The Aguilar ammo shot best in 2 rifles with 1-16 twist but did very bad with the faster 1-9″ twist. The slow speeds of big bore airguns also seem to do well with 1-16″ or 1-20″ barrels but i wonder if we switched or could find a 1-12″ or 1-14″ twist, i wonder if accuracy would suffer cause of the faster twist but still, slow speeds. Kinda like…OVER STABILIZING. But this is just a thought of mine.
And yes, as R.J. said, the Corsair 308 is 1-20″ and I’ve confirmed it a few times on my own. The LW 308 barrels are of course 1-16″. The 357 Corsair is also 1-16″ as confirmed on Randy Mitchels BB site. My buddy has a Beaumont Warrior and he switched from 25 to 308 by using the TOW barrel (1-20″) then the LW barrel (1-16″). He likes the LW more than the TOW 1-20 Twist. He sais there is a edge in accuracy. He shoots the RCBS 150 Gr FP COWBOY bullet. They drop at 160 grains and he sizes them to .309″. He is pushing them around 860-870 but has had them up to 975 FPS. He stated that the accuracy is no good at any higher than 870 FPS with the LW barrel and that specific bullet. With the TOW 1-20 barrel, he could shoot no more than about 830-840 before accuracy would start to suffer. But at 830 fps or so, groups were just at an inch at 100 yards with the TOW barrel and at 860’ish he got slightly less CTC at 100 yards with the LW barrel. The other note that he made was that the bullets shot out of the LW barrel seem to fly better to him judging by how clean the holes were in the target paper from TOW barrel to LW barrel. The Beaumont is a friggen powerhouse. Of course he has tuned the crap outta it also…lol
Hope some of this info helps
I’m not sure how a tighter twist would work in the airgun world either, but it would be an interesting experiment.
In the .22caliber GP world, Aguila makes a heavy 60grain subsonic bullet that does not shoot well in the typical 1 in 16″ .22 caliber barrels.
This 60grain subsonic bullet at 950fps needs a faster twist of 1 in 9″ to stabilize.
We don’t have the fire and heat of the gun powder burning that melts and swells the bullet, but we certainly can push a 22 caliber bullet at 950 fps.
Has anyone tried faster twist rates in their Condors?
A barrel with a tighter twist rate might help with accuracy.
In the powder-burning world, a subsonic .30 cal 150 gr bullet will (just) stabilize with a 12″ twist rate, anything heavier and you’d be better off with a 10″ twist. Being a newbie to modern airguns, this comparison might as well be moot. But the basic physics should be the same, lol.
i think its 1 in 20 same as the haley seeing as they use the same barrel maker
Thanks slow!
It’s a 26″ LW barrel with a 1 in 16 twist.
I see people with a Corsair 357 and it seems like they are able to shoot a wider range of bullet sizes. Of course the .357 is a shorter and fatter pistol round. Does anyone know what the corsair twist rates are in the 308 and 357 guns?
I would love to build a setup with a shorter barrel in the right twist rate for lighter ammo. Then I could shoot 50gr to 90gr ammo at smaller game in a nice little package with a ton of power.
This is an utterly fascinating thread. Thanks for keeping us updated.
Sorry if this has been asked before, but what’s the twist rate of your barrel?
There were a few shots left, but the bigger problem was that this 308 barrel doesn’t like to shoot anything under 100 grains. The 90 grain are not too bad, but the accuracy difference between them and moving to the 122 grain is very noticeable. The 90 grain seem more random and inconsistent in a 1.5″ to 2″ group.
Those cheap round balls that I was sizing to 308 to test the changes I was making to the gun worked well for my first crony test, but as I started testing for accuracy it was clear that they wouldn’t work at all for hunting or target shooting.
That large number shot was with a carbon fiber paintball tank and a Etachpa.
Nice! In your first post your getting 100+ FPE over 20 shots, does the power drop considerably after the 20th shot?
I finally got home before dark and had enough light to shoot with no distractions.
No changes from my last post and I’m still waiting on a new test valve.
Three shots each from 30 yards with the 122 grain round nose (third from the left)and the 158 grain spitzer that is the first bullet on the left.
I would also like to see someone come out with a barrel with a slower twist rate for shorter and lighter ammo. Those 52 and 62 grain swagged round balls and 75 grain bullets would be nice in a pistol or TalonSS setup if the right twist rate was found.
money shot – “preload added by the weight”
I’ve been wondering why the striker weights were not made to be “spring contained” to take up less room and to not create as much preload and looking at replacing the one I made with a sc one.
tagdagger -“with a heavy hammer you need the full power stroke of the spring to propell the heavy hammer. I removed the PW and replaced it with a one pc bushing in the Airarcher and my .25 slug gun. The resulting minimal preload makes for a more consistant hammer cycle and the gun is easier to cock even with a heavier spring.”
After seeing how slow the 95 gram hammer was with the stock spring and not having enough room to reach full velocity, I was wondering if removing the power wheel would give the room needed.
Norgeiron – “I’m looking at your data and trying to figure out how I can apply it to my own rig, a 17” .25 with Extreme valve. I’m sure other guys are, too. It seems that sometimes the heavier bullet and lighter hammer create more fpe, and other times the lighter bullet and heavier hammer is creating more energy. Bottom line: I don’t know what lessons to derive from the data . What do you recommend for us, based on your tests?
It’s really my quest for fire, and all of the little things that add up in making more power and finding more consistency.
I’ve tested different ID of the spring seat to find more air flow while keeping consistency. One thing I found was that making the delrin seat less of a cone shape inside the brass bonnet’s throat provide a small increase in both power and consistency.
This was more of a problem in the new stems and helped move more air.
A lot of the things I’m testing were probably an issue when the .25 was first coming out, but it is much more of a problem with the .308 due to reaching the maximum size the stem can be in a stock valve. The real enemy for power is the valve itself as many have stated. It’s a poor design to try and move air through a spring that is collapsing and creating a smaller area for air to flow.
I’ve drawn up with a simple solution to solve this problem while keeping the stock valve body. It’s not much different from a blod valve, but should provide more power and consistency. I’ll post it in the mods section for people to tell my why it will not work. I’m sure it’s too simple to work and has been tried before.
I’ll blame Tofazfou for my drive for power and consistency based on his theory that I believe in which it seems a lot of people don’t.
I can’t find the link to his Dragon slayer mod, but he showed how his dragon slower had more power and was more efficient with a larger caliber bullet than as a smaller caliber bullet of the same weight. It was easier to push a larger bullet with a larger surface rear area than the smaller caliber with a smaller rear surface area. I believe the analogy was that pushing something with one finger was harder than pushing with four or five fingers.
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Twarr, Slow, Norg,
Thank you guys also for the replies and twarr thanx for letting me babble on your Topic.
The 1-16 barrel that i used was a 18″ ER SHAW of course with the match BENTZ chamber and the 1-9 that i have in the picture above is a Green Mountain 20″. The second gun that i shot the AGUILA SS ammo in was a very OLD, and i mean OLD, Remington 571 22 lr that my Grandfather’s dad owned when he was a kid.
On a twist rate note, i also know that some barrels even though listed as a 1-16 or 1-10 or 1-12 twelve can be slightly more or less of that known twist rate. I.E. A 1-10 can be 1-10.5 or even 1-11 which could be the MOST of the reason why NO 2 BARRELS are ALIKE.
Again, just babbling.