Condor 308
I’ve been testing my R&L Condor in 308 caliber that I got a couple of weeks ago. I’m using a EtacHPA and a 68/4800 Carbon fiber tank, so it’s a completely different setup than their normal 308.
I first started out testing a 52 grain bullet and saw over 37 to 40 shots on low power wheel setting and starting at 2700psi with speeds from 840fps-860fps-840fps.
I adjusted the PW to a higher setting after the first 20 shots for 8 shots back in the 860fps and turned it back down for 12 more shots between 840 and 860 before dropping to 820fps at 1800psi. I was wasting air when I turned the PW up, so I should try it again without touching it.
I finally was able to get a shooting area set up in my shop over the weekend and after 80 shots at 2500psi to 2000psi to had an idea of how the power wheel and top hat effected the speeds.
3000psi looks good and I may get a nice shot curve at 3200psi.
——————–
3000psi
PW setting of 8-0
52 grn
989.5 (113.08 fpe)
1021
1021
1019
1024
1014
1020
1025
1001
1029 (122.29 fpe)
1006
1002
994.9
1001
995.6
989.6
1014
992.6
997.6
988.0
988.5
981.7
983.7 (111.76 fpe)
978.9 (2000psi)
——————–
3000 psi
PW setting of 8-0
124gr
806.6 (179.18 fpe)
800.3
x
806.7
x
x
x
816.7
808.7
815.2 (183.02 fpe)
789.2
x
x
x
788.1
820.6 (185.46 fpe)
x
775.7
760.5 (2000psi)
——————–
Available amount of air for the Standard Condor tank is 490 CC
29.90ci x 3000/14.7 = 6102.04 ci /1728 = 3.53 CF = 99,958.468 cc
For my Carbon Fiber tank..
68×3000/14.7 = 13877 ci / 1728 = 8.03 CF = 227,384.278 cc
68×4500/14.7 – 20816 ci / 1728 = 12.05 CF = 341,218.001 cc
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One thing that makes my setup different besides the amount of air is that I am using the EtacHPA and the direct amount of the air flow is different.
This should give you an idea of the available space in front of the valve and spring seat. Measurements may not be exact, but as close as I could get them.
One change I did between my two test was to polish the spring seat and add a bevel to the spring seat opening as well.
This image is after removing some material and beveling the edge.
This is after I polished the spring seat.
My next test will be to make a new spring seat that takes up less room in the Etac’s air chamber.
This should either give me the amount of air I need to break 200fpe or slow me down because of the added amount of air needed to fill the chamber up before entering the valve.
All Replies
The previous test with the same 74 gram hammer and stock spring seat produced these numbers.
2900psi, 8-0, .094 – 748, 744, 722 fps
2900psi, 8-0, .096 – 848, 832, 837 fps
vs 11/32 spring seat
2800psi, 8-0, .095 – 760.3, 743.0
2800psi, 12-0, .095 – 761.9, 1043, 1063, 716.0 – questionable bad crony reading vs inconsistent from high PW setting
Too many different variables to be certain, but I think we can agree that more hammer weight is needed and the few bullets I have left would be better used finding more power.
I made another striker weight and cut it down to test for a total of 94 grams. It will add preload, but I’m looking for that zero pw setting that everyone recommends.
bear in mind, with the preload added by the weight, even a 0 pw reading will be more than it was, minimal spring preload will never be achieved this way…
I’m looking at your data and trying to figure out how I can apply it to my own rig, a 17″ .25 with Extreme valve. I’m sure other guys are, too. It seems that sometimes the heavier bullet and lighter hammer create more fpe, and other times the lighter bullet and heavier hammer is creating more energy. Bottom line: I don’t know what lessons to derive from the data . What do you recommend for us, based on your tests?
Here’s a little update….
Keep in mind that I’ve been doing low elevation testing on this 308. Since Randy is in Colorado, it’s a whole lot easier to move thin air than my thick and humid Arkansas air.
I saw where Randy said he was getting 183fpe using a 125 grain slug, so I was using that as my foot pounds that I was trying to achieve.
Randy’s elevation with his custom valve.
(125grain/ 812fps / 183 fpe)
After squeezing everything out of the custom valve here is what I have.
With 94 gram hammer
92 grain / 849 fps / 147 fpe
122 grain / 768 / 160 fpe
with 74 gram hammer
92 grain / 824 fps / 139 fpe
122 grain / 848 fps / 195 fpe
I felt like I had to really work to get to that power range while keeping the stock hammer spring. I opened the spring seat up, tried different valve springs, but there was one problem. The barrel has no accuracy with anything under 90 grains.
Through all of my testing I felt that the gun needed more power to shoot the heavier bullets, but I had to show what it was doing. Yes, it is getting good power out of the 90 grain bullets, but looking at the numbers from the 120 to 150 grain and you could see the drop in power. I also feel that the speeds could be better with these heavier bullets to improve accuracy.
So the test ended there with that valve.
Then, I started testing on a valve #2.
This test was pretty short and simple since I ran out of 158 grain bullets.
2700psi
158 grain
870.5
865.8
864.9
865.9
That’s 265.92 fpe!!!!!!
With 90 grain bullets I was seeing 190 fpe, but I was having a hard time balancing between having a high enough preload to not have valve lock and having enough pressure to shoot at a decent fps.
With the heavier bullet the valve was able to stay open a little longer and give me those numbers.
That ended the testing for that valve and I reported what I found and my thoughts on what might solve the problem.
Randy is working on getting me another test valve and hopefully things will work well with the design change.
I would have to check tonight, but my memory says 16mm.
Blod valve plus your barrel guided hammer with a 308! That’s going to be nice!! I can’t wait to see what it does!!
I would love to talk to you sometime about your barrel guided hammer once I get through this testing and get a heavy spring.
Thank you for the very generous offer of letting me use the blod valve “cough, cough” if it was the right size and you didn’t have a 308 coming in two weeks! 😛 😛
I would send you my blod valve to try but I don’t think your breech is the same size. Plus I’m a couple of weeks away from having my own .308. What size is your barrel stepped to.
Thank you Norgeiron!! I’m sure most don’t really care about my ramblings and are bored with my data.
“Get the the hunting already!!”
I do appreciate any input people can give, since this is me learning by trial and error about the in’s and out’s of this Condor. I’m looking for what I can get out of this gun and how I did it. There really shouldn’t be any doubt to what I did right or wrong when I’m done.
Having a big fat valve like the blod valve would make testing so much easier, but I’m dealing with a custom valve and retainer in the AF assembly that can only move so much air due to the AF design. I hope I can find the combination that makes this gun effective as a hunting tool and cost effective for Randy to produce.
Good work with the methodical, trial and report methodology you’re using. Keep it up.
Thanks guys!
Searching the forum for the stock hammer spring rating.
Is this correct?
Spring over all length is 4″ – 3.3#s/inch rate
wire diameter-.062″ and its from music wire
OD- .980″
ID- .850″
Total coils- 9 and 3/4 turns
Stacked out full compressed- about 5/8″
“tank collar in the frame slightly rearward to give more time for your hammer to accelerate” –
Probably a good reason to have a shorter heavy hammer too.
Also if you want some free power, move your tank collar in the frame slightly rearward to give more time for your hammer to accelerate more 😉
As long as the breech o-ring doesn’t come off the barrel.
You Need a heavier hammer spring.
Maybe it is the law of energy messing with you. Since the formula is Energy = Mass x velocity squared / 450450, you can see the big factor is velocity. You are trying to accelerate this hammer up to speed before it collides with the breech and transfers it’s energy. The heavier hammer is going to take longer to accelerate so your terminal velocity is going to be less which velocity squared is the key factor. All in all, your frictional drag and tolerance fit are going to be key into a smooth transition of energy from the spring to the hammer.
Here’s what the 94 gram hammer gave me. I’m curious why I’m seeing less power. Is it due to too much length? Any suggestions?
I only had a couple 122 grains bullets left to shoot over the crony so I moved to a 92 grain bullet.
768fps with the 94 gram hammer and 11/32 seat vs 848 with the 74 gram hammer and stock seat.
I also moved the crony back 2 feet to rule out gun blast or debris. That makes it 8 feet away now.
122grain
94 gram hammer, 3000psi, 8-0, .100 TH
768.2, 753.3 fps
92 grain
94 gram hammer, 3000psi, 8-0, .100 TH
849.1, 824.4, 824.8, 809.6, 773.8
92 grain
94 gram hammer, 2900psi, 8-0, .098 TH
788.2, 828.5, 797.6, 772.3
valve lock on 3000psi, 4-0 PW, 94 gram hammer
Switched back to 74 gram hammer to get a reading on the 92 grain bullets.
92 grain
74 gram hammer, 2900psi, 8-0, .098 TH
806.6, 805.6, 801.0, 789.2
92 grain
74 gram hammer, 2900psi, 8-0, .100 TH
823.8, 824.3, 790.9
Since I’m low on those 122 grain bullets, I’m going to mark them as questionable for now and move to the next test with more hammer weight.
The previous test with the same 74 gram hammer and stock spring seat produced these numbers.
2900psi, 8-0, .094 – 748, 744, 722 fps
2900psi, 8-0, .096 – 848, 832, 837 fps
vs 11/32 spring seat
2800psi, 8-0, .095 – 760.3, 743.0
2800psi, 12-0, .095 – 761.9, 1043, 1063, 716.0 – questionable bad crony reading vs inconsistent from high PW setting
Too many different variables to be certain, but I think we can agree that more hammer weight is needed and the few bullets I have left would be better used finding more power.
I made another striker weight and cut it down to test for a total of 94 grams. It will add preload, but I’m looking for that zero pw setting that everyone recommends.
I know, I was looking at it and thinking the same thing, but then I shot the 52 grain strings after that.
That’s why I’m thinking inconsistency in high PW setting and it needs more hammer weight.
I shot the 122grain 8-0 first, then the 12-0 and had those readings. Then I shot the 52grain 12-0 and then the 8-0 last.
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The previous test with the same 74 gram hammer and stock spring seat produced these numbers.
2900psi, 8-0, .094 – 748, 744, 722 fps
2900psi, 8-0, .096 – 848, 832, 837 fps
vs 11/32 spring seat
2800psi, 8-0, .095 – 760.3, 743.0
2800psi, 12-0, .095 – 761.9, 1043, 1063, 716.0 – questionable bad crony reading vs inconsistent from high PW setting
Too many different variables to be certain, but I think we can agree that more hammer weight is needed and the few bullets I have left would be better used finding more power.
I made another striker weight and cut it down to test for a total of 94 grams. It will add preload, but I’m looking for that zero pw setting that everyone recommends.
bear in mind, with the preload added by the weight, even a 0 pw reading will be more than it was, minimal spring preload will never be achieved this way…
What MS said is very true and often overlooked. A heavier hammer is most always a longer hammer which means preload on the spring, and with a heavy hammer you need the full power stroke of the spring to propell the heavy hammer. I removed the PW and replaced it with a one pc bushing in the Airarcher and my .25 slug gun. The resulting minimal preload makes for a more consistant hammer cycle and the gun is easier to cock even with a heavier spring.