Could a frame threaded condor moderator be made?
I was just wondering if the inside of the frame and the outside (the piece that sticks in the frame) of the moderator could be threaded? The moderator would still not be able to be easily mounted to a firearm. Is this something anyone has done or could do? Or would it have to be too exact to figure out if theres an issue of clipping?
Thanks
All Replies
WOK: I will answer your question with another question…
open near any issue of Shotgun News and you will find one or two gents offering “pre 81′” Drop In Auto Sears for your AR15
while they were “grandafathered” for years their legal status changed a decade ago when the bench ruled that ATF lacked any authority to grandfather anything
so for roughly a decade the same outfits have openly committed felonies
why are they still in business?
Go to any gunshow here in the Midwest thats located in a community on or near the States border you will witness hundreds of felony violations of Federal law as non FFLs buy/sell out of State to other non FFLs, Same in the South East, Mountain States, basically everywhere by the highly restrictive States such as NY, MA, IL, CA. Did shows in nearly all of the contiguous USA and found this to be the case so why isn’t the regulators enforcing the GCA?
I can walk through any large show and the majority of medium to small shows and easily spot on average a dozen or more violations sitting on vendors tables…actually did this a couple times with an ATF compliance officer, {one of the really Good Guys}. He merely chuckled.
Deal is that while AG moderators have the capacity to be prosecutable, ATFE for the most part is disinterested in what you have stuck on the end of your BB gun, particularly if the factory placed it there.
Further while ATFE can refer all the BB gun silencer cases they want to DOJ for prosecution most will be declined by the US Attorney’s office as they know they will look like retards going after a guy with a pellet gun
the reason the one jackass was hemmed up was three fold
1…it was a Sam Yang 909 in .45
2…it was the People Republic of Il
3…and most important of all, he had a prior felony record
This of course can change with the blink of an eye
for many years Hahn, MKS and others re-welded cut scrap M14 receivers
shortly after GW got into office with his pledge to enforce all the laws on the books ATF declared thousands of rifles built this way Machineguns and confiscated any receiver they were able to forward trace.
Early in GWs admin ATF began re ruling on Machingun parts sets. I must have received half a dozen ATF letters demanding I forfiet different parts sets, all of which I had sold at Gun Shows 2 to 5 years BEFORE! So then it was who did you sell them to? How the fuck do I know, there’s no record keeping requirement on parts sets! So then you get the affidavit form to fill out and mail in…sigh
and folks wonder why I got out of the powder burner business!
Bottomline is ATFE’s main focus is on armed felons and little else
but as noted that can change fast without anyone ever being given any sort of heads up
Got a 12 of Sam Adams Summer Ale for the back porch tonight. Nice way to finish off a busy day of yard work and machining.
Lift a glass of whatever ya swill to air powered perfection.
Jim
I agree, its messed up, and only because criminals will run like cockroaches to any loophole in the law. Sadly we have to pay the price.
On the bright side, we get to shoot some of the most precise and accurate “non powder burning” guns in history. And we can do it in our back yards and on a friend’s land with a great deal of freedom.
Time for more beer :18
WOK and all,
Exactly.
It’s a silencer by all definitions. It’s easily removable. It would work on my 10/22 et al, and yet, I feel “dirty” to send it to a buyer….it’s just faaaqd up.
I’m also considering my MegaMod. It, too, could get me in trouble. I love guns and hunting and freedom too much. I abhor breaking the law.
I appreciate Riverside’s indepth posts, I think they can teach us all a lot.
Jim
So Jim,
Why is it the FTB does not go after the thousands of airguns which have been sold that have a sound suppression system on them?
Yes thats been my issue on the Crosman. No real way to fix it as the shroud could still be slid off the rear mount and the baffle stack accessed in that manner.
as a sidebar in at least one State, MI the Marauder has already been prohibited for sales as a violation of it’s States Code on moderators.
Wouldn’t really call it a debate, nothing for the other side to argue with given the content of both of our posts on the topic.
anyways I would rather folks know whats actually at stake than to keep playing the Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Say No Evil, just slide it under the rug and we will all be OK kind of ignorance.
Yeah knew you were going for the extreme interpetation of the situation regarding MMs question just thought it was wise to remind the lurkers that thiat was, just that, an extreme interpetation under the way the regulations are currently administered, muchless the actual suitability of AG moderators as effective firearms devices 😆
lets be real for a momment here no ex con will be looking to fit the worthless on a firearm single baffle/expansion chamber Rapid moderator
I was exploring possibility not probability. The original poster had a genuine concern and I looked at the situation from a worst case scenario.
I don’t stop fully at stop signs 100% of the time… do I get a ticket every time I do something wrong? Nope… Can I get a ticket for doing it? Yep… That’s all I’m saying in my earlier response. 🙂
Thanks for posting, I think this has been one of the better legal debates on the forum. :12
Now where’s that beer.
Re: Crosman, it sounds like the need to spot weld the foremost tube to the frame so that the customer has to take drastic and definite steps to show intent for another purpose… Presently they can just unscrew it and they fall out.
Okay, its beer o’clock, time to check out some BBQ.
Have a good evening,
G.
LOL @ Gimmick!
lets be real for a momment here
no ex con will be looking to fit the worthless on a firearm single baffle/expansion chamber Rapid moderator
being real the only suitable cans in the AG community for use on a .22LR are some of the early Parker Hale 1/2×20 units which differed not one iota from their .22LR offerrings. Some of the early BSA units are .22LR capable, maybe a handfull of the custom jobs and none of them will be all that effective.
just alot more pressure to deal with in a firearm
better off with a 2 liter pop bottle and a roll of duct tape
Gimmick: Yes I too have my concerns regarding the incredible level of straight disinformation there is within the AG community on AG moderators. I do try to steer clear of these threads for the most part but every so often I do see a need to speak out and attempt to correct online legal fallacies.
As far as the Crosman product is concerned it too fails the smell test by virtue of its readily accessible & removable baffle stack which once removed from the weapon can be classified as components of a regulated “silencer” ergo verboten. Per my past discussions with FTB In order to remain legal the baffles must not be removable which is why I have serious doubts Crosman ever had their design approved by the Firearms Technology Bureau of our current ATFE. Remember any component is the same as the whole further FTB has been clear once you remove the permanently attach mod it is now potentially prosecutable as an unregistered “silencer”.
FWIW I am of the opinion that the machined core designs are far less problematic that the more common baffles and spacers…its a thin grey line but I don’t see ATFE going hell bent on them as they are far harder to adapt to a firearm providing the core is properly designed. Ideally as noted in my original post if this core is permanently attached to an AF bbl you have an ideal solution to any legal issues.
Of course the Feds are also saying that we can not retrofit…it has to be from the factory which is another reason why I am going the route of a custom frame to negate that potential issue as well.
As far as treating AG moderators like handguns, won’t happen
they are either unregulated or will go under the provision’s of the 35′ NFA. What you propose is the ultimate slippery slope as you are creating a whole new class of “firearm” adjacent to an unregulated AG
do that and the next thing you know it will be Brady checks to buy a Talon or Condor.
MM: unfortunatly yes by the technical letter of the law the moment you removed the “shroud” you “manufactured” an unregistered device.
I wouldn’t sweat it too much tho at this stage of the regulations evolution
I cannot speak as a lawyer but this is how it would work in my mind in your situation given the research I have done.
Since it is no longer attached to the unregulated gun it is now a device in its own right. The tube you are selling has the form and function of a silencer. So, technically, it is now an unlicensed suppressor/muffler and a felony.
I would not mail it, fed ex it, etc. in case the guy you are selling to is a LEO or his mail is being monitored because he has prior convictions. If I knew the person (family / friend) then I would offer to fit it on their gun, by hand, myself. Thus the tube is now part of an unregulated gun once more. Removal by the new owner would be their act/intent/responsibility.
Ask yourself… does he actually have the gun? does he have criminal intent? if you’re not sure then you may in fact be selling it to someone who’s worked out how to procure unlicensed silencers. And you become the supplier! A an ex-con is now serving time for shipping just such a part to someone else, you may be doing the inverse, innocently selling to a criminal.
Riverside, et al.
I took the shroud (a long tube) off my Rapid MFR with a allen wrench and it still works perfectly. Now I have a long tube with a small hole in one end, a small baffle-cone, and a bushing.
If I sold these parts to a guy for his Rapid, I could be put in jail, am I right?
Thanks for your insight.
Jim
Riverside, I agree completely. Your comments:
Exactly, the law forces people to (a) not own one, (b) own an illegal silencer, (c) go through an expensive and time consuming process… Lots of people are opting for options (a) and (b).
Why not treat it like a handgun and have a background check at Academy, five day wait, and you can walk out with your gizmo. It works for firearms!
I don’t consider this “in play” since the silencer device is a permanent, integral part, of the gun. You can’t use the silencing element without serious modification or destruction of the gun… This provides a safe boundary between an unregulated AG and demonstrating intent to use it on a portable firearm.
I do agree that the law is written to give the feds as much room as they need to lock a criminal away for a long time… My concern is the amount of mis-information on the topic. The NFA M30 clearly states that an AG/Paintball silencer is considered a firearm because of its form and function. The trick is to have an unregulated device that’s sole purpose is to shoot pellets or paint… the MROD, Talon SS, and other integral silencers are legal because they are part of an unregulated gun.
Gimmick: Yes that is EXACTLY what I was pointing out
Now as to what constitutes “permanent” in FTBs eyes is a whole other matter.
Walt & WOK introduced the idea of set screws and loctite
depends…
here is the issue…just because FTB issued a ruling to one soul doesn’t mean that you can do the same thing without receiving your own clearance ruling in most cases. Worse yet there are dozens of cases of FTB saying such and such is OK than later changing their panties under a new administration and over ruling their own prior ruling. One of the worst examples to date of that was the short lived Atchisson Accelerator 1022 stock where altho approved by FTB and sold for a brief time period weeks later FTB re-ruled and declared the tiny little action return spring a “Machine Gun” in and of itself. You got to keep the stock assembly, just had to send ATFE your stupid fucking spring!
Dont even get me started on the basis for the Warrant against Bob Stewart of Maddi Griffen
Similarly different folks have been ordered to use different procedures for permanent attachment of barrel extensions. ranging from blind pinning, high temp silver solder, weldment, even deformation “riveting” of the muzzle. In the past, even currently euro AGs are coming in with mods that are basically fixed in place with high strength adhesives…not hard at all to easily remove as evidenced by the HW, BSA and other factory installed mods that regularly turn up on the Yellow.
As far as keeping the Cat in the Bag so to speak…its been out for years, ATFE & DOJ simply are being highly selective in their enforcement to establish solid precedent in the numerous Federal districts.
I have rather extensive background in these matters starting years and years ago when I applied to FTB for a ruling on a custom barrel in .36 Maynard with an integrally machined baffle stock as part of the barrel to fit an 1882 Maynard. Had a few interesting discussions regarding that project with former FTB director Ed Owens who agreed that it was legal but I would need to provide a sample to the lab before he would issue a clearance letter on it. Never did get around to it tho.
What airgun folks should be asking themselves is whether they actually think they could build a suppressor for lets say a Knights inline muzzle loader and not get hemmed up by the Feds.
As far as this notion of yours about registering AG silencers under the NFA…sorry that’s NUTS. How many folks on TAG would go through the Bullshit with the fingerprints, CLEO sign off and $200 tax to have a mod on their pellet gun
what do you suppose this would do to the sales of the Vaunted Crosman Marauder? Thats just PC Insanity my friend!
the sensible option is when some idiot is actually proven to be using an AG moderator ON a Firearm BUST HIM to the full extant allowed by the law not get all retarded and stupid regulating ever more inanimate objects
punish the actor for his deeds not for possession of dead metal & plastic
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
So it just goes to show they have bigger fish to fry.