Could a frame threaded condor moderator be made?
I was just wondering if the inside of the frame and the outside (the piece that sticks in the frame) of the moderator could be threaded? The moderator would still not be able to be easily mounted to a firearm. Is this something anyone has done or could do? Or would it have to be too exact to figure out if theres an issue of clipping?
Thanks
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The thread I started yesterday contains actual legal terms and a ruling by the ATF on the NFA regarding airgun and paintball silencers. http://www.talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14902
Cutting a long story short… so long as the gun is manufactured with a permanent silencer you’re ok. Permanent means you render the gun useless by its removal (e.g. hacksaw). Doing so is intent and a felony. If the silencer comes off and the gun still functions then that silencer is considered a firearm. All 3rd party shrouds/frame extenders would be included. Regardless of whether it will fit on a powder burner with additional duct tape.
KM is right… keep a low profile, don’t do anything stupid, and the ATF may leave everyone alone…. BUT its our personal responsibility to know the law, ignorance is no defense.
What’s crazy is this need not be such a problem. If AG silencer manufactures held a firearm manufacturing license, serial # each unit, and then transferred the silencer to the purchaser or a trust, it would all be good. As it stands people are making AG silencers that can be purchased by criminals without any background check… That’s the real problem here and one day AG silencer manufactures will be investigated like Paintball silencer manufactures were in the 90s.
On a light hearted note: I’m disappointed AirForce didn’t make a longer frame model to help strip air for Talon and Condor owners. I also think a vented front bushing and frame are more than legal… something that should come standard with the Talon range.
WOK: The Airgunner ignorance of ATFE rules & regulations, muchless DOJ prosecution tactics is a recipe for legal disaster. The items you mentioned are by themselves lawful under the doctrine of “use & intent” however in a bag together they are prosecutable as “constructive possession” of the regulated device. I will cover all this in far greater detail in my response to Knife Maker.
KM: You are wrong on every point, dangerously Wrong!
I am going to cover this point by point so hopefully even you will be able to digest it. I am not going to be all warm and fuzzy about this shit nor am I going to hold your fucking hand. I just want folks to understand the regulations.
First your notion the parts aren’t regulated
you are right, they were not until back in the 1980s. What happened was the MAC bankruptcy auction which led to thousands of complete internal parts sets for the entire Sionacs series of moderators being sold on the open market. Times were good back then, hell even Numrich Arms were selling the internals while a cottage industry was born manufacturing “80% tubes”. The absolute leader in high quality replacement tubes and adapters back in the day was a god fearing chap out of Missouri, our own DAQ who incidentally continues to manufacture extremely high quality adapters to this very day as a side business to the AG stuff…even has an off site web page devoted to his line.
Anyways it was the wild wild west back then and was how I started in the Gunshow business as I was the kid with the table covered with moderator parts kits that I sold at about a 500% markup…couldn’t keep the shit in stock and the vast bulk of my gunshow clientele were LEOs. It got crazy, from the ashes of RPB came SWD and their line of HE internal parts sets. Another leader was Rhino Parts out of the Carolinas which later became SEC after ATF busted one of the partners but thats a whole nother’ lesson for you guys. Forget the exact year in the 80s however FTB using their rules making authority ended up redefining “silencer” to include basically all components of a regulated device so after that SWD came out with their pop bottle adapter and SEC their motorcycle oil filter adapter which shortly after were decreed regulated “silencers” in and of themselves.
Now Knife Maker I want you to go online, in SGN, wherever and find me where you can purchase a silencer parts set today, hell even a fucking baffle. Call up Doc Dater at Gemtech see if he will sell you a baffle to put on your keychain. Not going to happen. You seem hungry so I will be feeding you a variety of hotlinks. The first to digest is this post from one of the leading Class 2 guys, Serbu…
http://yarchive.net/metal/silencer_law.html
Now I briefly discussed “use & intent” doctrine as well as “constructive possession” with WOK and I can see I need to club you upside the head with whats happened to your “rights” while you were apparently asleep at the wheel or drunk in the ditch.
All this shit came out of the insane war on drugs and thats the easiest context for the novice to absorb it. Lets take your typical current Meth Lab bust. So what is your average meth “lab”? Nope, no glassware, Bunsen burners or Doc Frankenstein bullshit…just a Igloo cooler, some cold pills, ect is enough to catch a case. Most Americans are in constructive possession of a “lab” between the house, garage and basement but thats where “use & intent” doctrine come into play. Its all about your intended use of the item which is where as airgunners we have a presumptive out…maybe
Its not really about that you intend to only use your device on an AG with silencers but rather whether they can convince a Federal Judge/Jury that the insidious device in evidence could be used as a silencer on a firearm. Once you are in Federal court…kiss your ass goodbye or just enter a plea.
You see years ago ATF already ruled on AG “silencers” due to Parker Hale units being imported and sold in the back pages of Guns & Ammo as well as Guns Magazine. These had the 1/2×20 thread, wouldn’t really fit much until DAQ offered up his 1/2×20 adapters for virtually any .22 pistol or rifle out there. Add to that when the TEK22 came out its bbl was threaded what? Yes 1/2×20. There were several guys importing the Parker Hale mods that went to the big house after ATF retroactively ruled on them and yes tho prohibited by the Constitution ATF does this all the time.
Incidentally KM people are ALREADY in Federal prison over AG silencers, ATFE is already very well aware of what we are doing in the AG world…
try this case from 2006 and there are a few others I can post up:
SPRINGFIELD – A federal jury yesterday found Michael A. Crooker guilty of a firearms crime that will mean a 15-year mandatory prison sentence.
The jury, made up of eight men and four women, delivered its verdict shortly after 2 p.m. yesterday after deliberating about 10 hours during two days.
Crooker, 51, formerly of Agawam, had been charged with being a previously convicted felon “causing a firearm to travel in interstate commerce.”
Crooker was accused of trying to mail an air rifle and sound muffler to an Ohio man in 2004. Air rifles are not considered firearms under federal law, but silencers that can be used on regular guns are. Testimony during the trial centered on whether the black metal cylinder mailed with the air rifle qualifies as a silencer and therefore a firearm. Felons are prohibited from owning firearms.
The jury yesterday morning came back to Judge Michael A. Ponsor with a question, basically asking for more of a definition of a silencer under federal law. Ponsor told them he could not give any more of a description than had been given in his jury instructions.
Crooker sat silently and without obvious expression beside his lawyer, Vincent A. Bongiorni, as the verdict was read.
In an interview after the verdict, Bongiorni said that there is not much to say about a verdict from a jury. “It was tried on a factual basis,” he said.
Sentencing for Crooker was set for Oct. 20 at 2 p.m. Assistant U.S. Attorney Kevin O’Regan said after the jury’s decision that he is pleased with the verdict.
In closing arguments on Monday, O’Regan told jurors they should have no question Crooker shipped the sound muffler knowing it was capable of being used on a regular gun.
Bongiorni said in his closing arguments that jurors cannot conclude that Crooker knew the muffler could work on anything but the air rifle. He said he defied the jury to find any evidence that Crooker had actual knowledge that it could work on a powder-burning, or regular, gun. The trial began on June 28.
this is dangerous ground for the ignorant KM
later I will try and dig up a few relevant FTB policy statements and letters if you really need meto to keep slapping you across the face with a thirty pound dead fish
A box of fender washers, bushings, a pipe….things that are components of silencers which Home Depot sells by the thousands everyday. 😀
They had to make adapters to get them to attach to the Ruger but, they went the extra mile and got them to work. They have even used duct tape to get a moderator fitted. You can read about that case on the ATF’s website.
A really good Att. would be able to point out that it was the ATF that broke the FED law. Not the Defendant!
And no. Just a component is not enough for a conviction. If it were, you could be convicted for purchasing a coke. It does come in a bottle that could be use after all. 😉
A little common sense can go a long way. Americans do, for the moment anyway, still have a few Constitutional Rights.
Now go and take that muffler off your lawn more, and the Glass pack off your truck. Either can be used as a moderator. Your going to prison RS. No doubt about it! OH shit! Get rid of the pillows on the bed too. NOW!!! 😯
Goat, If they truly had a case, and thought you broke the law, you wouldn’t be here typing this! 😉
Air Gunner’s all over the US would be getting locked up. WE’RE NOT!
The ATF has no juristiction over Air Guns. Buy if if we keep kicking the sleeping dog. Keep fucking with them, They will. And it will be our own damed fault! I mean, do you call the IRS every time you trade for a gun? Any one here that damed stupid?
If one were to get all anal about standing on the Right side of ATFE you will need to submit a sample to FTB for a ruling
to be frank, I dont think even Crosman has a clearance letter on the Marauder shroud. Here is the boggle, its NOT the complete device…all it takes is ONE component that might be used in the construction of a regulated moderator and you can be charged/convicted.
Dont matter the baffels are made of plastic, as the other party mentioned all it takes is a one decible reduction for one shot
Hell folks have done Federal time for a 2 liter pop bottle taped on the end of a .22
So how do you get around it?
only real way is a fully integrated design
on an AF rifle the easiest way to effect this is a core permenently mounted to the barrel
as I recall Barnes received a FTB letter on his design which machined the baffle stack as part of the barrel itself which was then had a steel sleeve permenently fixed over it…totally unitized and difficult to readily adapt to a firearm.
anything that comes apart FTB will have issues with
Walt,
Just slip fit it and secure with a good epoxy and then pin it to the frame. That will make it permanent and not removable
Old Goat, that’s a pretty sad story. I’m aware of the BATF restrictions, but the landmark case was the one involving the paintball gun they tried to get declared as a silencer. If its built on, it does not fall within the BATF definition.
I initially thought I would weld on the tube extension to the frame, and still have half a mind to do this. I am fairly certain I can control the HAZ, and the loss of temper would not affect anything. Temper can be re-established by sending out for heat treat later, if needed. It’s just a major PIA, so I’ve fallen back to the backup plan, which is to thread it and ‘permatize’ it by loctite. I may have to further ‘permatize’ it against guys like Wok by just spot welding a portion after it is loctitted; so that it will fall into the same category as the short barrelled AR-15s with stovepipe flash hiders; they are pinned and welded, and that makes them legal even though the barrels are shorter than required; so a pinned and welded extension tube on the condor should meet the same test.
walt
Someone recently posted pictures of similar project.
Hey Assman, It doesn’t matter how easy, or not, it is to mount to a firearm. If they happen to cross paths with you and your moderator, they will take the time and effort needed to get it mounted to a 22 cal Ruger pistol.
An asshole at work (no relation to assman, I hope!) turned me in for making firearm silencers. I was making plastic baffles for an add on moderator for my Edgun. The asshole knew that I didn’t own any firearms.
The ATF knocked on my door and got a tour of my house. I showed them my Edgun, with the add on moderator, and they said WTF is that!? They had a hard time believing it was a “pellet gun”, they thought that it was some kind of “assult rifle” at first. They took my add on Edgun moderator and the shroud that I had made for my Condor for testing. They had to make adaptors to get them to attach to the Ruger but, they went the extra mile and got them to work. They have even used duct tape to get a moderator fitted. You can read about that case on the ATF’s website. Whatever they fit on the end of the test Ruger only has to reduce the report by one decibel for one shot to be deemed a firearm silencer. It doesn’t matter if what was fitted was destroyed after that shot. Both of mine passed the test. I signed off on them and they were destroyed. I didn’t get any fines or jail time.
I was very lucky, I don’t own a firearm and don’t have any kind of a record. If had, I probably wouldn’t be typing this right now.
The ATF left the stock shroud on my Edgun. I am still buying shrouded airguns but, you can bet your ass I don’t modify them from factory stock.
Not preachin, just saying.
Even more so if they were kinda all the Same Size!!! 🙄
I Second That!!!!!!
Sounds great Walt.
As for the LOCKTITE a few seconds with a lighter will change that definition to not really permanent. 😛
I am doing these. I will have a completed prototype finished in a little bit. Still making the tooling, although I’ve finished making most of the tools I need. Actually what is taking longer to do is to make the tooling to produce full length picatinny rails that will mount to the outside of the tube. My tube will be ROUND on the inside, I have ordered them thicker than the stock frames and finish each one to the same internal size. They will be PERMANENTLY (loctited) threaded into the frames so the bore of the extension tube matches the bore of the frame. You will still be able to disassemble it by taking stuff out the front.
aloha,
walt
Even more so if they were kinda all the Same Size!!! 🙄
Sure would be a big help if the inside of the frame was “ROUND”!!!
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Riverside, here’s the quote about the permanent nature of a silencer. Specifically “render unusable” when removing it. So you need to permanently affix it to the gun to show clear intent that its for AG use only.
Here’s the pertinent text from the ATF Ruling:
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2005-4.pdf
However, once the device is cut from the paintball gun, it can be used to diminish the report of a firearm. As stated previously, the design characteristics of the device are consistent with those of commercial silencers, and testing indicates that the device functions to reduce the report of the firearm. Moreover, removal of the device from the paintball gun indicates some intention to utilize the device for something other than reducing the report of the paintball gun. Because the device will no longer be permanently attached to an unregulated item, and because of its silencer design characteristics, removal will result in the making of a silencer under the NFA and GCA. This is consistent with the definition of “make” in the NFA, as removal of the device results in production of a silencer.
Held, a device for an unregulated paintball gun, having a permanently affixed, integral ported barrel and other components, that functions to reduce the report of the paintball gun is not a “firearm silencer” or “firearm muffler” as defined, as the device is not one for diminishing the report of a portable firearm.
Held further, removal of the permanently affixed ported barrel and other components from a paintball gun is a “making” of a silencer under the GCA and NFA that requires advance approval from ATF.
Date approved: October 12, 2005
Signed by:
Carl J. Truscott
Director