EDgun Matador R3 versus Kalibr Cricket, my comparison….
Hi guys,
Warning for those who don’t like images:
This is going to be a thread with lots of graphics….. 😉
As promised, I’ll try to share with you my personal opinion and findings while comparing these beauties:
As some of you may know, I have two Matador Std R3s and I have one Cricket (with access to another one). All are cal.22……
My wait for my Matadors should be well documented on this very forum…..
The Crickets were a part of a group buy masterminded from Europe somewhere. The Crickets were shipped in parts to Norway and reassembled by my good blueprinting friend Egon Olsen. In the process he had to remove a “restrictor” screw that had been put into the guns before shipment. Most probably because of Power limitation rules at origin….
The Crickets arrived with no documents whatsoever. No instructions, – no nothing. I don’t think this is standard procedure though…..
The Cricket weighs less than the R3, – and is approx 5 cm shorter. Not a lot, – but overall it makes the Cricket even easier to handle than the already tiny R3….
The side by side comparison was done from my modest little shooting table at my summerhouse:
– and the shooting range is here, – with my target set up at 46mts:
Why 46 mts ? Simply because I could not pull my shooting stand further back right now. A huge tree has fallen during winter, and all the branches have taken up my space… 👿
First problem: How to fill the f…. Cricket ?
The fillprobe nut is so tiny that a standard foster coupling gasket will not seal. The entire probe is small, – and you fear you may break it while trying to tighten it:
The above (sorry for the image quality) is a comparison between ED’s, Cricket’s and Falcon’s fill probes. You can probably see what I mean….
As I could not make a standard Fostergasket fit, Egon had to make special gaskets that we fitted into the Foster coupling itself. Not an ideal solution, – and I have no clue how long it will last…….. 🙄
On the fill probe: Matador 1, Cricket 0 points.
Air filling:
I honestly dont like any of the solutions that these two manufacturers have chosen………..
The Cricket people have come up with the worst. To expose the hole for the fillprobe, – you have to slide forward the tip of the reservoir. But that stupid tip is retained by a spring, – and slides back with a smack once you let go:
If you’re not careful when taking the fillprobe back out, the tip will spring back and ruin the fill probe O-rings faster than I can say my name….
While filling, the “tip” rests on the previously mentioned small nut. And there’s not a lot clearance. So a bigger nut (for those with lathe skills), – is not going to help you much. A thicker nut might…….
In short: A very stupid filling system, – BUT once you know how to operate it and care is taken, – at least it covers the hole when filling is over.
The Matador does not come with anything to cover the filling hole at all:
I use tape right now, – but a plug of some sort would be good….. 😉
My preferred system would be that of Falcon:
The tip of the reservoir has been turned into a curled “collar” that you rotate to expose the hole. Simple, easy and effective. And few moving parts that may break or go astray……….
Now, I have no idea how much air I can fill into the Cricket, – and the gun gauge certainly does not help much:
I trust the gauge on my fillkit, – and 3000 psi is roughly on the border between green and yellow…….
Points for airfill procedure: Matador 1, Cricket 0. In my opinion….. 😉
Cheers from Trygve 😀
To be continued……….. 😀
(if you so desire…… 😳 )
All Replies
My dear mentally retarded and good natured senior servant:
The answer is no. The tests have only just started. While there are clear indications that “Master R3” is superiour to her highness “Lady Cricket” when it comes to power and shotcount, – we’re still in a situation where long range shooting needs to be tested as ED suggests.
I may not be the right person for that. My experience with shooting beyond 100 mts is veeery limited indeed, and I have no problems admitting that….. 😉
There are however other angles too that needs to be investigated further. I’m afraid “Lady Cricket” is staying with me for a while…… 😀
After all she is a sexy young lady delivering some 30 fpe with a 14 shot mag and with a matchweight and sound level that would outmanoeuvre most of her classmates………..
She deserves a little more attention I think…… 😉
Cheers
Trygve 😀
Proud owner of Edgun Matador 22 Long #3210.
Hmmmmm….. 🙄
As much as I share your enthusiasm my friend, – I’m struggling to understand how your question can be relevant to the subject of this thread..???
Kindly explain …….. 😉
Cheers
Trygve 😀
Ed. Based on your test and design(which is excellent) what is optimum speed for JSB 18s out of R3 22 Long? I know Oldgoat praises 890fps and believe him wholeheartedly but I believe that is out of standard length. Does it make a difference with longer barrel or new twist rate? Mine is currently at 907 fps and delivers better results than Ive ever seen in an air rifle. I believe my off the shelf Red Label JSB production quality is truly limiting factor. You’re philosophy of under promise and over deliver is mine as well. Your promised shot count is great to begin with, the fact it delivers 10-15% more and with consistently that is hardly matched is outstanding.
Proud owner of Edgun Matador 22 Long #3210.
There is nothing surprising me. I know that my regulators and valve system are well built and I spend a lot of time, money and tests to get it to this level (but you should be aware that now I have improved valve that gives about 10-12 more shots with the same adjustments). In case if I would like to compete with Cricket on its field (lower speed) I would readjust the reg. and valve and no surprise would get something about 100 shots. Besides the sheme of the air port I asked you to disassemble both guns and you would see it yourself.
Next one — the sound suppression. That is a curried function of air consumption. Cricket has a 30 % more volume of the suppressor but if tune boh guns at the same speed — sounds at least the same or even heavier. It means that R3 has more effective moderator as well 🙂
As I told you already — the system should work about 70-80 % of its capacity and have some excess of power in order not to work close to the limit of its efficiency. It is like a car, you have a red zone at about 6 000 r.p.m. but usually run it about 4 000 r.p.m., if you always run the engine at close to its limit you will destroy it soon. R3 as you see doesn’t work at the limit of its power.
I’ll give you one more hint what to test, it is quite interesting, indeed. As I am very concerned about long range shooting I spend a lot ot time testing barrels with different twists and inside diameters, to find out the best solution for long range shots. As you know it is not line dependence between accuracy and distance. It doesn’t mean that if you have an accuracy 20 mm at 50 meters you will easily get 40 mm at 100 meters. I can differ in few times and a lot depends on the barrel and how the pellet goes through it and the correspondence between its speed and angle speed (revolution per minute). After a year of test I found quite a good solution for our speeds, JSB heavy pellets and accuracy not only at close range (like 50 meters) but at long range shooting (up to 200 meters). If you have time, place and wish you can check it out yourself, hope you wil be surprised 🙂
Yes, the important thing, regarding shot count I guaranty only 50 shots for standard one, all shots over it is just a nice bonus for the same money for my clients 🙂 I prefer to mark down the characteristics of my guns rather then to mark them up as many manufacturers do 🙂
First off….your place is a genuine “Man Cave”, uncluttered with girlie hanging things on the wall, everything in a place deemed to be acceptable to a man, and no tampons in your coffee cup! No pesky individuals running between the target and rifle barrel during shot strings. Ahhh…These are priceless years Zoco, enjoy them while you can.
The difference between the two regulators is fantastic. A game changer for sure. Almost looks like it self adjusts for the different pellet weights.
300 Bar fills proven to be unwise and wasteful.
A near useless manometer unless your fill station has a pressure gauge on it.
Proven less power than an Edgun.
Very impressive indeed. I am humbled in your presence. Send me your shoes and I will kiss them, and return them with a genuine “Hoot Certificate of Certification” at no charge.
In light of these tests, do you plan to get rid of the Cricket, or keep it as part of an exotic collection?
Regards, your humble and obedient servant…
The Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T
A brief note on the “labeling” issue before we move on:
I am not a bit worried about the two Russian guns being compared in this thread. That as long as they are being used under “normal” circumstances.
BUT when people start experimenting with 300 bar fills (and some idiots will), – there’s a whole new set of problems linked to that…. 😉
I am not necessarily talking about the guns themselves. But more so fillprobes, fillkits, gaskets, couplings, gauges etc. etc…….
Going from 200 to 300 bars is not only bad economy, – it might also be a risky process. And any potential accident somehow involving a gun not having adequate marking, – may become a problem even if the gun itself is not the cause for it……..
But, yes, – this is a jungle of paragraphs/rules and regulations, – and it is not easy to understand….. 😥
Let’s move on………. 😉
Now, – I have previously shown you the Cricket gauge which does not seem to reveal a lot of information:
Having filled and refilled a few times, I think it says that you’re in the clear as long as you’re in the green zone. Based on my various gauges and fillkits, it appears that the green zone would start in the area of 200 bars and bring you down to roughly 100 when the regulator seems to come off and a refill would be wise. In the blue zone “breathing problems” start, – and in the yellow zone you are moving into territory unknown to most. I have not tested how far it goes in terms of bars, – but I would not be surprised if it ends around 300 bars and that the red zone is a “no-go” zone…:wink:
I have spent some time chronoing now……..
In an environment that I claim is “controlable” and “stable”, – others would disagree completely. In the latter group is my girlfriend, my kids and a few others… 😉
Welcome to my Oslo “world”:
I have marks on the floor for the Chrono set up and for the shooting table. This in order to ensure a fairly even distance between chrono and muzzle from one session to the next.
The Chronograph (I call her “Chronelia”) is a US made CED M2 which sucks when it comes to rigging. However “Chronelia” has some built in features which I like. One is a remote display you may see on my so-called “dining table”. If I manage to aim at/shoot through that, I shall seriously be considering giving up shooting alltogether…..
She has also a built in sexy lady who reads out the numbers for you loud and clear. Nice if you feel sad and lonely, – she’s always there for you. As long as she has enough power that is. She eats batteries like there’s no tomorrow, – and she is sometimes more expensive in the keeping than my gf…. 😥
I always use skyscreens and IR-light. This to ensure that measurements are read in the same manner regardless of lightning conditions.
“Chronelia” is somewhat modest in her readings, – and oddly enough she reads some 10/15 fps lower than my 4 Chronies. And none of the latter ever gives the same reading in between them. So chronying is not a “scientifically accurate” and “exact” business unless you invest in somewhat more sophisticated equipmet.
“Chronelia” has a USB connection that transfers your strings into Excel very easily. That is as long as her USB interface corresponds with that of Bill Gates. Unfortunately that’s not always the case. The CED people in the US blames Bill Gates and vice versa. So right now I have a dedicated laptop that “Chronelia” likes and communicates with. From that I have to transfer by memory stick to my desktop (Dell Optiplex 990 something). A little complicated, but it works.
I have several hundred shotstrings archived, – something that makes it easy to compare over time. Partly also the reason why I want to keep the same setup .
Behind the skyscreens you see two doors. The rightmost takes you into my “toolshop” and the the one to the left leads into my gunroom. I shoot through the door to the far left where the pellet trap is positioned just in front of my bedroom in there somewhere…….
Now to some of my findings, – and “LadyCricket” first:
I filled her up to 200 bars (my fillkit gauge) and reached the end of the gauge greenzone. Then I started to shoot without any prior adjustments. Pellets in the above: JSB 18, 5.52 mm. The reservoir holds 280 cc.
Resulting string is represented by the blue line. Some 50 good shots in the 860+ area before I reached the “blue zone” and the reg came off. Compared to the shotstring shown earlier its not bad, and an indication that ED is right. I seem to have more shots from 200 to 100 bar than from 300 to 200.
But then I tried to adjust power up. Started with 1/2 turn in on hammerspring. The resulting string is represented in red. As expected, – a little up on power, – but fewer shots. String still fairly flat which indicates that hammerspring tension and regulator still speaks the same language.
A new adjustment, – and this time I turned the adjustment screw 2 full turns in hoping to reach R3 levels. I could hear the hammerspring complaining as I rotated the screw……
The resulting string is shown in green in the above. Not much change at all !!! 😯
No noticable increase in speed at all, – but a lot fewer shots……. 🙄
What does this mean now ?
It seems to me that “Lady Cricket” does not want to deliver more than 870 fps (corrected for low readings by Cronelia, -may be 880)…..
She simply does not seem to have the power to do so…….
This is weird…..
If any of you have any experience with the Cricket, – please give me some advice here…….
I did not try to adjust the hsp further in. My gut feeling tells me it will not help much, – and I run the risk of breaking something……….
So I turned the hsp back out to factory settings, scratched my head a little and then decided to do another and more odd test:
I started off with one mag (14 shots) of JSB 18, – then I moved directly on to JSB 15.8 (5.52) for the next mag, – 3rd mag back to JSB 18 and 4th mag Barracuda 21.14 grs (5.52) before finishing off with JSB 18. Something that you should not do in a real world, – at least not without a barrel cleaning first.
It appears that “Lady Cricket” reacts quickly and quite consistently to “payload”, and I was particularly happy with her acceptance of Barras.
But all this are just indications, I need to test a lot more……. 😉
Now time for R3 which (according to ED’s website) has a reservoir of 289 cc, – 9 cc (3.2%) more than that of “Lady Cricket”, – in practical terms theoretically one shot more or so per fill. I used R3 no 2844 and filled her up to 200 bar on the same fillkit gauge (btw. corresponding well with Ed’s gauge) and with the hsp tension I currently have.
I stopped shooting at about 100 bars on the gun gauge. Same pellets, – same everything…….
But not the same result:
The string is represented in green above……
I could not believe my own eyes when I saw this. Not only does the string show an advantage in terms of speed of some 40/50 fps, – but the shotcount is also much higher…
As per Ed’s request, I then adjusted the hsp of the R3 half a turn out in order to try to achieve the same speed as “Lady Cricket”. I knew this would reduce the flatness at the end, but still. The blue string shows you what happened.
While still delivering some 900 fps, – the shotcount increased to nearly 80 good shots…
“Lady Cricket’s” factory settings produced the red string above….
ED, – I know you’re gonna love this, but quite honestly it seems that the R3 could easily eat “Lady Cricket” for breakfast…….. 😀
At least when it comes to power and shotcount…….
I’ll need to do a lot more testing to have this verified, but the indication is clear. Much clearer than I would have anticipated up front…….. 😉
Any comments ????
(if you’re still awake that is………. 😳 😳 😳 )
I myself need another drink……… 😀
You have a point. Nor do any of them possess a “burst disk”, as required on stand alone cylinders.
Perhaps they just aren’t recognized as a high pressure vessel???
Hoot
I’m wondering if DOT, EU, CE certification apply to stand alone or removable cylinders only, not attached cyclinders like on an EDgun. I can’t remember seeing any stamped marks on any of my other guns from FX or Crossman.
Since everyone I know fills their own air cylinders from a scuba/scba tank, there is no reason to have anyone else fill it. So, no one is going to examine the air cylinder for markings other than the owner. At least that’s the way it is here in the U.S.
As far as exploding and injuring someone, well…as the Shaw-Lin monk once told his student: “Shit happens Grasshopper…shit always happens!!!”
Anyone who buys a Chinese high pressure vessel deserves what they get.
It’s not a good enough reason for me to not purchase one. At some point you have to check the reliability of the maker, and decide whether you can trust them.
Examining pressure vessel markings, and potential failures, is like running around the house naked, pissing on flies. Nothing is going to change, but it’s something to do, good exercise, and fun to discuss at a party.
My wisdom exhausted…I remain:
Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 T
Nobody has doubts about the quality of neither ED’s nor HW’s (Weirauch) cylinders…. 😉
But as I said, this may be country spesific……
And don’t mix retesting with the original CE/DOT labelling. That’s just confusing the matter………
Let’s stay with the new cylinders for now……
As I understand it, DOT requires cylinders to be marked/labelled regardless of size in order to be legal in the US. May be a variation between states, but I don’t think so.
IF an accident happens where an aircylinder is involved, – what do you think will happen if your insurance company finds out it has not been properly marked/tested according to DOT standards ??? 😉
And likewise in Europe, – you haven’t got a chance if your equipment hasn’t got a CE-labelling……
This is why all bottlefed BSAs, Daystates etc. have Luxfer stamp their buddybottles. If it was not needed, – do you think they would have done it ??? 😉
That said, the regulations change all the time. There is a separate set of rules for “pressure vessels” on the move compared the those that are in a fixed position as an example….
And Kazzz: A typical example of a cylinder smaller than 1 liter that requires regular testing is that of a diver’s emergency vest. I have used one for several years as back-up air supply for my PCPs. So the world is not set in stone….. 😉
Also there are different sets of rule for “breathing apparatuses” (smoke divers, scuba divers) and for cylinders used for a non breathing purpose….
This is a jungle where navigation is difficult……….
Better safe than sorry may be ???? 😉
My point is that neither ED nor Cricket has any trace of the relevant required markings. Not because they are bad, – but simply because they haven’t gone through the needed steps required by the US/European bureaucrats….
And we should be aware of that…….
Cheers…. 😀
PS: Read the above letter from LUXFER one more time:
“Within the countries of the EC, new cylinders supplied for use with air guns etc. must comply with the Transportable Pressure Equipment Directive (1999/36/EC) and carry the mark of conformity which is the Greek letter “pi”.
Zoco,
I indeed know this guy. The cricket was bought by another guy from the forum which I know also personally. He had it in his hands via via.. I don’t know how 🙂
But, he had also shot Edguns and back then, he bought like 5 new guns in 1 month and sold 4 of them the month after.
Also the cricket was sold quite fast. He pm’d me: you wouldn’t buy a cricket, believe me.
So the guy (blackbytes) bought the cricket from him. That guy, I have my own opinion about him. I once bought something from him and later he wanted to buy something from me, and.. I will not tell more about this but I never do business with him again.
Also, I think you’re showing the reservoir of an HW100 there.. There was the same discussion in our forum about testing the cilinders and if its less then 1L, you don’t need to let it retest!
Cannot stop remembering 🙂 There was another call of an angry client, about 8 years ago. He claimed that my gun almost killed his wife. I began to ask him about details and found out he began to disassembled the reservoir, then he removed the last screw from the front plug, it shot out as a quite heavy bullet and smashed everything he has at the table. He told that ketchup from the broken bottle was all over the kitchen, including walls and ceiling. The plug destroyed a cupboard’s door completely luckily flying off his wife.
When I asked him if he COMPLETELY removed the air from the reservoir he said “Yes, there was just about 10 bar lets, so small pressure…” As you understand that he, after my lecture of physic of 7 grade, completely admitted himself guilty and tnanked me for the lecture (I didn’t take money for that 🙂 )
Yep, I’ve just remembered, I know about one explosion of my reservoir. Once I got a phone call from a very angry client “Ed, what the fuck I began to fill up the reservoir and it exploded!” Hm, I thought and began to ask him what happend and found interesting things:
1. The gun was in the metal box.
2. The barrel was taken off as well as stock and breech.
3. The explosion happened at about 120-140 bars.
I didn’t know what to think and asked him to send me the parts of the gun to make my own investigation. I have set an angreement with police labaratory to check the remains of the reservoir carefully to know it it was filled with air or some other gas, wasn’t it been clean first with some flamable liquids and then assembled and filled etc, etc, etc. Quite an expensive test I have to confess.
Then I got the remainings of the reservoir, looked them carefully and understood that I don’t need some especial investigation. I found out that when the reservoir exploded the back plug was fixed to the it with just one screw not three as it supposed to be. That was the only reason. I called the client and asked him why he did it. He didn’t find anything to answer me. At the end he completely admit that it was totaly his fault, he paid me a new reservoir and damaged parts and assembled the gun again. As far as I know he uses it for few years already and has no problems with it.
I have no idea how it works in EU or in USA and would be very pleased to know. In Russia we have the same kind of “high pressure vessels regulation” many and many pages. But, they all said that those rules are valid only for the vessels with the working volume more then 1 liter (1 000 cc), all that is under that volume is not considered as the high pressure vessels.
But whatever they say I am concern about the safty of my clients and all the reservoirs are tested. And few reservoirs from every new delivery of the aluminum tubes for making them are tested with as much pressure as I can achieve. My reservoirs are tested at 450 bar, though I recommend to use them with the pressure no more then 240-250 bars. According to calculation they are safe up to the pressure of 1 000 bar. In the real world I could get only 650 bar and the reservoir remained hermetic. Even when I have the reservoirs with the wall thickness of 2.5 mm, now they are 3.5 mm.
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All:
I have been Googling and searching for other comparative reviews/tests of the R3/Cricket. So far with no luck……
Any ideas/suggestions ????
Cheers
Trygve 😀