FFP scopes
Well I went and done it, been looking at entry level/cost FFP scopes for the last week and was really looking at the Falcon Menace 4-14×44 until someone commented that BSA has one (Midway exclusive not even on BSA site) that is an almost exact copy except for the turrets, that is rumored to be made by the same company. So went ahead and ordered both, BSA from Midway and the Falcon from SWFA. Figure I’ll check them out and keep the better of the two.
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Sir and others,
My experience with FFP is limited to looking through them at stores and others scopes at the range. All of my scopes are SFP. What would you prefer for sparrow/starling pesting? 90% of the shooting is mainly varying distance frequently from 30-75 yards. With my SFP I just leave my 32x SFP scopes on 24x all of the time and only adjust the side focus shot-to-shot. FFP or SFP? I suspect I would always leave an FFP scope near max mag as well which is what I prefer.
I´ve never seen a target shooter use a FFP scope although that doesn´t mean there aren´t any.
Good info! I myself need as thin a reticule i can find. I don´t hunt , neither do i do any FTT so i have no use for the FFP reticle. Those FFP´s i have any experience with are the Falcon and a S&B. Both had a thick reticule at max power and the S&B reticule was downright Porky , which is understandeable since it´s a hunting scope for low-light. Those target shooters i know who own a FFP scope never use them at the range – only for hunting and some of them do FT too.
I´ve never seen a target shooter use a FFP scope although that doesn´t mean there aren´t any.
Precisely! A first focal plane reticle covers the same amount of the target no matter what magnification you dial to. The reticle gets bigger as the magnification increases but the target gets bigger at a 1:1 ratio also……
I like the TMR reticle as there is nothing in the dead center to obscure the target at high magnification and at low mag it looks like it’s a crosshair when in fact the horizontal and vertical lines do not touch.
Technically, the reticle of an FFP doesn’t get superthick at higher magnification– the reticle of an FFP scope stays the same size regardless of magnification. 🙂
On SFP scopes the reticle changes size in regards to magnification and appears smaller with increased magnification.
However, FFP scopes typically have thicker reticles than SFP scopes so they are still visible & usable at lower magnifications since the reticle appears smaller to the eye at lower magnifications (even though technically it stays the same size in relation to the target regardless of magnification.) However, clever reticle design can still permit usability on small targets at lower ranges while still maintaining a fine enough line thickness at higher ranges such as having finer stadia lines around the centermost intersection (see the G2DMR, Kahles MSR2, etc) or floating dots at the center (see IOR, March, Vortex, etc.) Another option is keeping a few mils near the center thinner for shooting on high magnification but using thicker stadia outside the center area to turn the reticle into more of a duplex at low magnifications to draw your eye into the center of the reticle since you probably aren’t going for pinpoint precision anyways at lower magnification. Since most users do most of their precision shooting at high magnification this design approach works quite well.
The March scopes have reticles that are a little thick for my taste (not to mention the giant numbers to the side of the reticle)– but that’s mostly because March’s 8x zoom range makes it difficult to make an FFP reticle visible & usable on both the high and low end of the mag range. With an 8x zoom range a reticle that appears thin at maximum magnification would be very difficult to see at the low end of the magnification range. A scope with a 3x, 4x, or 5x zoom range makes it much easier on the reticle designers– a 4-12x FFP scope can have a thinner reticle than a 3-24x scope and still be easily usable since a 4-12x scope only has a 3x magnification range and a thinner reticle will still be usable at the bottom end of the zoom range since the range isn’t so broad.
For example, the main stadia of the March FML-1 reticle are 0.07 mils thick which means the lines are 0.252″ thick at 100Y– fairly thick by the standards of most reticles. For shooting larger targets I have no problem with the March reticles but for the occasionally tiny things I like to shoot with my air rifle I find the 0.07 mil lines a bit of a distraction. It does however have a 0.1 mil floating center dot which covers a 0.36″ diameter circle at 100Y– not too bad and it works well on small objects provided there is no wind or you dialed for wind. I dial for elevation and hold for wind though so if there’s any wind you’ll be holding off and your target will be somewhere under that thicker 0.07 mil windage line which may or may not be a problem depending on the size of the target.
For some other examples of FFP reticles…
The H2CMR reticles in my S&B 5-25 PMIIs are 0.035 mils thick– that’s only 0.126″ thick at 100Y and pretty fine as far as FFP reticles go– very easy to aim at a small target at long distance without the reticle totally covering the target. This is one of my favorite FFP reticles and favorite scopes which is why I own several. A bit too big and heavy for the air rifles (though they do have 10Y parallax) IMO, but I did try one on top of the Edgun for a weekend…
The Bushnell G2DMR reticles are 0.05 mil main stadia thickness (0.18″ at 100Y) but the center section of the reticle (between 0 and 0.5 mil from the center) is only 0.030 mil thick which is 0.108″ at 100Y– that’s quite fine. This reticle works very well for everything and the additional windage holdoff lines makes quick shots much more accurate if you don’t have time to dial elevation before the shot. It’s a very good reticle design IMO having owned multiple examples of it in different scopes (3-12 FFP, 3.5-21 ERS, 4.5-30 XRS, and I have the upcoming 3-12 LRHS on order which uses a variant of the G2DMR reticle.)
The Mil-Quad reticle in the SWFA 5-20 HD (at one point I had 9 of them, great scopes for the money) are 0.05 mils thick which covers 0.18″ at 100Y– again, not bad at all IMO.
Regardless of perceived issues with reticle “thickness” the real world usability of FFP reticles for rapid & precision ranging and elevation/windage holdovers at any magnification trump their perceived thickness “drawbacks” IMO– especially out in dynamic situations like hunting or shifting winds. Just point and shoot regardless of magnification– you never have to worry about dialing to the “right” magnification for your reticle to be scaled right or apply a scaling factor for a different magnification as you do with an SFP scope. However, if you’re primarily a benchrest guy shooting small targets at known ranges all the time then a good SFP scope with a superfine reticle probably makes more sense.
Once I got my first FFP scope with unit matching reticle and turrets about 7 years ago and realized how much easier it made my job not having to worry about being on the correct magnification for windage or elevation holdovers– or worse yet dealing with an SFP mil reticle combined with MOA knobs. After that “a-ha!” moment I switched everything over to FFP. I’ve changed my optics around many times over the last 7 years but each change was always for yet another FFP scope. The current makeup of my optics is entirely S&B and Bushnell, the S&B’s using the H2CMR reticle and the Bushnells using the G2DMR reticle. I’ll try another March at some point if and when they offer a reticle similar to either the H2CMR or the G2DMR but I also realize given March’s wide zoom range (8x typical for their lineup) that it’s a difficult request for them to accommodate. March is listening, hence the new offerings like the 3-24 x 50 and option of 0.1 mil knobs on the 5-40… hopefully new reticles will follow.
As always, match your equipment to the job. I shoot my Edgun 75% of the time hunting which is always at varied ranges and wind conditions so an FFP reticle works great; I can dial if I have time or holdover if I don’t have time to dial and the pellet always impacts at the correct reticle subtension. The thinner center of the G2DMR also doesn’t hold me back when shooting smaller targets, so dialing for the elevation of a known distance target and putting the thin center of the reticle on a 1/2″ diameter circle at 50Y, 75Y, 100Y is easy. If I was shooting benchrest at tiny targets at known ranges 100% of the time I might put a high magnification SFP scope on there with a fine reticle– again, match the equipment to the job.
Technically, the reticle of an FFP doesn’t get superthick at higher magnification– the reticle of an FFP scope stays the same size regardless of magnification. 🙂
On SFP scopes the reticle changes size in regards to magnification and appears smaller with increased magnification.
However, FFP scopes typically have thicker reticles than SFP scopes so they are still visible & usable at lower magnifications since the reticle appears smaller to the eye at lower magnifications (even though technically it stays the same size in relation to the target regardless of magnification.) However, clever reticle design can still permit usability on small targets at lower ranges while still maintaining a fine enough line thickness at higher ranges such as having finer stadia lines around the centermost intersection (see the G2DMR, Kahles MSR2, etc) or floating dots at the center (see IOR, March, Vortex, etc.) Another option is keeping a few mils near the center thinner for shooting on high magnification but using thicker stadia outside the center area to turn the reticle into more of a duplex at low magnifications to draw your eye into the center of the reticle since you probably aren’t going for pinpoint precision anyways at lower magnification. Since most users do most of their precision shooting at high magnification this design approach works quite well.
The March scopes have reticles that are a little thick for my taste (not to mention the giant numbers to the side of the reticle)– but that’s mostly because March’s 8x zoom range makes it difficult to make an FFP reticle visible & usable on both the high and low end of the mag range. With an 8x zoom range a reticle that appears thin at maximum magnification would be very difficult to see at the low end of the magnification range. A scope with a 3x, 4x, or 5x zoom range makes it much easier on the reticle designers– a 4-12x FFP scope can have a thinner reticle than a 3-24x scope and still be easily usable since a 4-12x scope only has a 3x magnification range and a thinner reticle will still be usable at the bottom end of the zoom range since the range isn’t so broad.
For example, the main stadia of the March FML-1 reticle are 0.07 mils thick which means the lines are 0.252″ thick at 100Y– fairly thick by the standards of most reticles. For shooting larger targets I have no problem with the March reticles but for the occasionally tiny things I like to shoot with my air rifle I find the 0.07 mil lines a bit of a distraction. It does however have a 0.1 mil floating center dot which covers a 0.36″ diameter circle at 100Y– not too bad and it works well on small objects provided there is no wind or you dialed for wind. I dial for elevation and hold for wind though so if there’s any wind you’ll be holding off and your target will be somewhere under that thicker 0.07 mil windage line which may or may not be a problem depending on the size of the target.
For some other examples of FFP reticles…
The H2CMR reticles in my S&B 5-25 PMIIs are 0.035 mils thick– that’s only 0.126″ thick at 100Y and pretty fine as far as FFP reticles go– very easy to aim at a small target at long distance without the reticle totally covering the target. This is one of my favorite FFP reticles and favorite scopes which is why I own several. A bit too big and heavy for the air rifles (though they do have 10Y parallax) IMO, but I did try one on top of the Edgun for a weekend…
The Bushnell G2DMR reticles are 0.05 mil main stadia thickness (0.18″ at 100Y) but the center section of the reticle (between 0 and 0.5 mil from the center) is only 0.030 mil thick which is 0.108″ at 100Y– that’s quite fine. This reticle works very well for everything and the additional windage holdoff lines makes quick shots much more accurate if you don’t have time to dial elevation before the shot. It’s a very good reticle design IMO having owned multiple examples of it in different scopes (3-12 FFP, 3.5-21 ERS, 4.5-30 XRS, and I have the upcoming 3-12 LRHS on order which uses a variant of the G2DMR reticle.)
The Mil-Quad reticle in the SWFA 5-20 HD (at one point I had 9 of them, great scopes for the money) are 0.05 mils thick which covers 0.18″ at 100Y– again, not bad at all IMO.
Regardless of perceived issues with reticle “thickness” the real world usability of FFP reticles for rapid & precision ranging and elevation/windage holdovers at any magnification trump their perceived thickness “drawbacks” IMO– especially out in dynamic situations like hunting or shifting winds. Just point and shoot regardless of magnification– you never have to worry about dialing to the “right” magnification for your reticle to be scaled right or apply a scaling factor for a different magnification as you do with an SFP scope. However, if you’re primarily a benchrest guy shooting small targets at known ranges all the time then a good SFP scope with a superfine reticle probably makes more sense.
Once I got my first FFP scope with unit matching reticle and turrets about 7 years ago and realized how much easier it made my job not having to worry about being on the correct magnification for windage or elevation holdovers– or worse yet dealing with an SFP mil reticle combined with MOA knobs. After that “a-ha!” moment I switched everything over to FFP. I’ve changed my optics around many times over the last 7 years but each change was always for yet another FFP scope. The current makeup of my optics is entirely S&B and Bushnell, the S&B’s using the H2CMR reticle and the Bushnells using the G2DMR reticle. I’ll try another March at some point if and when they offer a reticle similar to either the H2CMR or the G2DMR but I also realize given March’s wide zoom range (8x typical for their lineup) that it’s a difficult request for them to accommodate. March is listening, hence the new offerings like the 3-24 x 50 and option of 0.1 mil knobs on the 5-40… hopefully new reticles will follow.
As always, match your equipment to the job. I shoot my Edgun 75% of the time hunting which is always at varied ranges and wind conditions so an FFP reticle works great; I can dial if I have time or holdover if I don’t have time to dial and the pellet always impacts at the correct reticle subtension. The thinner center of the G2DMR also doesn’t hold me back when shooting smaller targets, so dialing for the elevation of a known distance target and putting the thin center of the reticle on a 1/2″ diameter circle at 50Y, 75Y, 100Y is easy. If I was shooting benchrest at tiny targets at known ranges 100% of the time I might put a high magnification SFP scope on there with a fine reticle– again, match the equipment to the job.
Do you call this superthick ???
March 3-24/42 at 24x, distance to object some 70 yds………:
I think your scope worths the price?
No. I don´t think he´s willing to invest 4.000$ either. Take a look at those FFP scopes and the reticles in the price range disgussed in the topic instead. Those are what i call superthick. Ever taken a peak thru t.ex that Falcon ? BSA ??
Post a pic of one of those and ask the same question again.
Bushnell customer service sucks. I spoke to someone who recently had the same trouble I had two years ago getting my Elite repaired. The Vortex is clearer and has better turrets, Also, the XLR reticle has wider windage for airgun usage. Lastly, my brother lives by Vortex in Middleton, WI so I can have him beat their door down if there are any problems. 😆 Also, you want the new XLR reticle on the Vipers. It kicks butt not the one described in his review.
Here is the FFP I would get for 6-24 in that $900 range.
Vortex Viper HS LR 6-24×50 FFP XLR (MOA)
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/viper-hs-lr-6-24×50-ffp-with-xlr-moa-reticle/reticle
Here is a comparative review
Bushnell ET 6-24 FFP vs. Vortex viper PST 6-24 FFP
“I spent a fair amount of time comparing the Bushnell 6-24×50 and the Vortex PST 6-24×50 side by side. I had an eye resolution chart set up at about 200 yards, and I also spent time behind them looking at various objects, buildings, etc, from 50 yards out to about a mile, in various lighting and atmospheric conditions.
Glass:
-Resolution: From my two samples, the PST could consistently resolve one or two lines better then the Bushy on the resolution chart.
-Low-light performance: I could not tell a difference in light-gathering or detail resolution in low light, but the PST reticle was easier to pick up when it was getting dark, plus it has illumination
-Field of view: The Bushy had a wider field of view then the PST on any given power
-CA: I believe this is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be, but the PST had less visible CA then the Bushnell
I realize that glass is really subjective, but the optical differences between these two scopes was very small; definitely not enough to turn a hit into a miss.
Turrets:
-The PST turrets were definitely nicer then the Bushnell, and by nicer I mean they were more crisp and had basically no ‘slop’ in them. That being said, both were perfectly usable
-The PST has a crude but usable zero stop, the Bushnell does not
Reticles:
-This is simply a matter of preference. The Bushnell is available with the G2DMR reticle, which seems to be pretty popular. If you want a ‘Christmas tree’ reticle, then get the Bushnell. If you want something more basic, the PST MRAD reticle is well-designed and executed in my opinion.
Warranty:
-I think both companies would take good care of you, but the Vortex warranty is about as good as it gets.”
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44561.aspx
I prefer this XLR.
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P51721.aspx
http://guns.allzip.org/topic/95/980536.html
I do not think the reticle is super thick. http://img.allzip.org/g/95/orig/6133364.jpg
For the price of those vortex, your getting into the 6×24 bush elite ffp with the g2m reticle. Also, what is the difference between the hs and the pst? I know the hs only has one exposed turret and the other is the slotted dial under a cap. I that the only mayor difference? Is either of the two vortex scopes better than the other as far as Airguns go? Anyone with both the bushie and the vortex that can compare?
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44561.aspx
I prefer this XLR.
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P51721.aspx
http://guns.allzip.org/topic/95/980536.html
I do not think the reticle is super thick. http://img.allzip.org/g/95/orig/6133364.jpg
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-PST-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P44561.aspx
I prefer this XLR.
http://swfa.com/Vortex-4-16×50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P51721.aspx
http://guns.allzip.org/topic/95/980536.html
I do not think the reticle is super thick. http://img.allzip.org/g/95/orig/6133364.jpg
– for me it is worth the price. Others may think differently…… :biggrinn:
Cheers
Trygve who has some sun in Oslo today. First time since X-mas !!!! :biggrinn:
Big Brother Trygve,,,
we have sun everyday continuously and the temperature is 20c ….
BTW; this fall and winter we had only 5 times raining ,,,, bring your guns and spend your times here ,,,
Yes Brother Hemn,
– for me it is worth the price. Others may think differently…… :biggrinn:
Cheers
Trygve who has some sun in Oslo today. First time since X-mas !!!! :biggrinn:
Do you call this superthick ???
March 3-24/42 at 24x, distance to object some 70 yds………:
I think your scope worths the price?
Your March reticle is very similar to B20 from Falcon. 😉
http://guns.allzip.org/topic/95/980536.html
I do not think the reticle is super thick. http://img.allzip.org/g/95/orig/6133364.jpg
Do you call this superthick ???
March 3-24/42 at 24x, distance to object some 70 yds………:
What i strongly dislike in all FFP scopes is the superthick reticule on higher power. Forget any precision shooting at higher mag.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2. This POS iPhone sucks though …
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I´ve never seen a target shooter use a FFP scope although that doesn´t mean there aren´t any.
I use FFP for everything… target, hunting, plinking, etc. Having a reticle that is always the proper subtensions regardless of magnification is perfect for any situation IMO– especially since you can’t control the wind unless you shoot indoors all the time. FFP just takes another possible “oversight” out of your firing solution which would be making sure your SFP scope is on the correct magnification for the subtensions to be valid and/or applying a correction factor for the magnification you are currently using.
If I was shooting F-class or Benchrest with tiny targets and unlimited time so I could dial elevation and windage before every shot I might put a fine target dot SFP scope on my F-class rifle… but I don’t shoot F-class.
I’ve never not been able to hit a small target or not be able to print tiny groups with my FFP reticles… but some are certainly better than others for tiny targets. Right now the G2DMR and H2CMR are my two favorite reticles but after recently using the MSR I like it as well. I’ve tried it in Kahles, S&B, and Steiner. S&B and especially in the Steiner I feel it’s too thick. If you’re shooting ~1 MOA or larger targets it’s not too bad but on stuff smaller than ~1 MOA it’s a bit too thick for my preference. Kahles modified a bit and made it the MSR2 to thin it down. Steiner is currently tweaking the MSR reticle for the same reason, lots of suggestions it’s a bit on the thick side.
If March comes out with a reticle similar to the G2DMR or H2CMR in the new 3-24 x 50 I think I’ll have found my new favorite air rifle scope… but until then I’ll stick with my Bushnell 3-12 x 44 FFP G2DMR and try the upcoming 3-12 LRHS. However, if S&B can adjust the parallax on their 3-20 to adjust down to 10Y (it normally goes down to 25Y) I might end up with one of those on my Edgun; the 5-25 S&B was nice on my Edgun except for the weight and since I occasionally have to blast critters inside the barn at close ranges I want a lower minimum magnification for a larger FOV than the 5-25 offers.
I probably buy, sell, and switch optics more often than a person should…
My experience with FFP is limited to looking through them at stores and others scopes at the range. All of my scopes are SFP. What would you prefer for sparrow/starling pesting? 90% of the shooting is mainly varying distance frequently from 30-75 yards. With my SFP I just leave my 32x SFP scopes on 24x all of the time and only adjust the side focus shot-to-shot. FFP or SFP? I suspect I would always leave an FFP scope near max mag as well which is what I prefer.
For an air rifle I really like the 3-12, 3-15, 3-18, or 4-16 scopes for lots of FOV and a lower magnification for close in shots while still providing plenty of magnification on the top end. My feeling is that many people fall into a “trap” of using too much magnification on air rifles and thus really limit their bottom end magnification choices and correspondingly limit their field of view– FOV is very valuable in hunting situations when the target may hide behind clutter (again, shooting non-moving paper exclusively is a different set of rules.) I’ve hit ground squirrels out to 145Y and just yesterday tagged several starlings between 85-115Y with my 3-12 Bushnell without any issues.
While the 3-12 works fine honestly I’d prefer a 3-18x to have a little more magnification available on the top end (sometimes a blackbird and a starling can look somewhat similar sitting in a tree at 100Y+) but I’ve yet to find one that I like that also offers 10Y parallax for clear parallax-free close-up shots. The Leupold Mk6 3-18 is a pretty nice little scope– relatively small and light and the TMR reticle is pretty good but again, 50Y minimum parallax. I’ve played with one on a powder burner and it was a case of “almost, but not quite” regarding its suitability for air rifle use IMO.
The SWFA 5-20 HD is nice too; very good glass, 10 mil turrets, good reticle… but it has 35Y minimum parallax that again isn’t totally suitable for the occasional close in shot. If you never shoot closer than 35Y though it’s a great scope, you can pick up mint used non-illuminated models for about $950.
The SWFA 3-15 FFP however is very well suited to air rifle use as it has 6Y minimum parallax. However, it only has 5 mil knobs so there is the possibility of getting “lost” if you dial for a long range shot past one turn. There are zero stop shims available for it though that takes care of that issue. I tried an SWFA 3-15 and the Bushnell 3-12 and while I liked the greater mag range of the SWFA the Bushnell had the better G2DMR reticle and clearer glass so I kept the Bushnell.
The Bushnell 6-24 G2DMR FFP is another good scope but again, limited by 50Y parallax. Same goes for the 3.5-21 DMR, 3.5-21 ERS, and 4.5-30 XRS– all good scopes but limited in parallax, 50Y for the 3.5-21 versions and 75Y for the 4.5-30.
The upcoming Bushnell LRHS looks really good… 3-12 x 44, fairly small & light, 7Y close in parallax, modified G2DMR reticle with some changes to make it more visible at the lower end of the mag range in brush or clutter, 10 mil elevation knob with zero stop, plenty of elevation travel, reportedly extremely good glass from early reviewers, and a capped windage turret. I have one on order to test and it should be here around April.
Let’s face it; the vast majority of optics out there have 50Y minimum parallax– while that’s fine for 90% of powder burner applications that’s a limitation for air rifle use. The list of mil/mil FFP scopes I’ve thought about putting on my air rifle until I found out they had 50Y minimum parallax and crossed them off that list is a long one (various models from Vortex, Kahles, Steiner, Nightforce, Weaver, SWFA, Bushnell, etc.) Unfortunately most optic manufacturers don’t seem to consider the rimfire or air rifle market or the potential need for parallax adjustment closer than 50Y. March has pretty much every aspect covered IMO– excellent glass, excellent turrets, and a broad magnification range, 10Y minimum parallax on their entire lineup, not to mention being uncharacteristically small & light for their specs. Unfortunately their eyebox is a little tight as a byproduct of the large magnification range vs. small objective diameter and I’m not a big fan of their current reticle choices which is the real deal breaker for me. Tried a 3-24 and sold it, liked most things about the scope with the exception of the eyebox and reticle– I could get used to the eyebox with time but not the reticle.
Still keeping my fingers crossed for March to make some big strides forward in the reticle department. In the last year guys asked for a larger objective on the 3-24 and 0.1 mil knobs on the 5-40– and March has shown new product this year that meets both of those requests. They’ve said no reticle changes for this year but they are looking into it… hopefully they deliver or another scope manufacturer comes out of nowhere this year with a 3-18, 5-20, 5-25, or similar with all the specs and reticle style I’m looking for.