Finally getting a .257 build started!
I contacted R&L and Mike at citrusairguns about barrels hammers and springs for the 257. Both can get me close to what I want. Has anyone dealt with either before? Is there anyone else that will machine the parts I need?
All Replies
Caboose I didn’t know that about the super sear not working with dougs setup. Ill have to put the sear on hold and try out with my other condor with the sear already installed. Just off the phone with airforce. My red condor with old style trigger assembly and spinlock will be in the mail tomorrow morning.
I want to do this with the Condor SS in a bad way
I want to have a two barreled rifle, one that fits inside the frame with a barrel length of around 20 inches and the barrel threaded to take a Subsonnic type insert combination end cap that screws on with a spanner wrench. That should keep it from stretching out the holes for the end cap.
I have the Dman 4500 tank that Mike has, but I want to mount it under the frame where the forearm is, then run a line to a Etac that has a Tippman type stock mount threaded the same as the AF bottle for a side folding stock. That mount needs to be threaded the same threads as the valve so when I put a 36 inch barrel on it, I can ditch the side folder and put a 2nd 4500 PSI tank on ala Evanix Leopard.
Of course it will be powered by Doug’s 257 valve and hammer. I am thinking the fly in the ointment on this heavy spring new trigger combo may be the barrel riding hammer when it should be a frame riding hammer to avoid the stress on the barrel when cocked. After I get my house thing settled I will buy a Condor SS and have it sent directly to Doug so he has one to play with. I have every confidence our on board genius Doug will sort this out.
I think the side folder with a WOK guard would be a neat woods rifle.
Good news is that if this all works, Af will steal it and we will have it as a factory item in 2018 and BB can write it up in his blog. 😛
Sounds like you got it handled Doug R-UP! 😀
I ended up going with the 4500psi tank from Dman. It really woke up the .257 for me. More power, more shots, less weight! . A real win-win!
I need to get a stronger spring as well. I have to keep mine turned full on and loaded by the front door here in the Texas Hill Country. The varmints don’t give you the time to go thru the rig-a-maro of setting the gun up when it’s needed! So no doubt, the gun sitting with full spring Tension, is hard on the spring, and it has weakened a bit with the 9 lb spring.
Knife
Yeah, I think in the O.P. he said that he has one of the old style frames on order, so he’s all good as far as that goes…. I also ordered an old style new frame about the same time as you also….. I also am wondering what is up with that???? Thought it might have been here by now. Anyways I have that new triggered Condor with Dyotats valve. The striker release didnt like to lock up the Dyotat hammer in a very nice way and the added force of stronger spring would bind the hammer inside of the frame kinda funny and introduced a inconsistient side load upon the breach end of the barrel making the breech ride a bit cockeyed. The quick fix was to just compromise with lighter spring , but if I preloaded the power wheel too much it would bind intermittently. I took everything all apart and not sure exactly what exact procedure seemed to correct it. But seemingly just an overall complete massage and very attentive and time consuming hand fitting of the whole gun. Particular attention paid to the trigger group parts. I did polish and kinda surfaced the trigger parts with enough polishing of the striker release to have likely reshapped a couple thou here and there. I then cyro’d the trig parts just to make sure that it remains hard and tempered like. I had rubbed them with graphite moly lubraplate type concoction before reinstalling. I relaxed the striker release trigger group spring a tad by preloading it a bit before installing it. I also polished the hammer where it had been galling on the striker release bearing srface. Removed about 3 thou around center of hammer and chamfered the face, where it locks up . Also made sure that the hammer was able to fully travel its full stroke. I noticed no freeplay before when the hammer cocked but now I get just about an 1/8″ freeplay byond spot where “sear ” engages when cocked. It just feels better and no more binding. I only had four rounds to shoot through it. But seems more consistient and I can crank the power wheel to any setting without breech shifting or hammer binding. I am waiting for a new chrono and bullets to arrive so as to give this a good workout. I also need to upgrade from 9# spring to 15# or so …… need specs from doug. Then I can give a more definative report. If nothing else I will also have an old frame shipping in. Either way I will have my .257 and will build another gun,,,, perhaps a .177 , as I kinda miss that lil utiilitarian urban pea shooter around the house. The .257 is not only not backyard friendly ,,,, it is full on too backyard dangerous to shoot indiscriminately. NOPE I am not going to be the guy that got stupid and you read about!
So besides casting gear, I must figure out what to do about air. The stock tank leaves ya wanting for sure. Right now its going to do best tethered to 3400 psi din scuba tank off the bench. :5:
Oh On that Paris D Hammer or whoever ya ordered it from , send it off to your guy doing the barrel, he may be able to accomodate by selecting another diameter blank to build upon from TJs :8:
double check that the super sear will work with the new frame! I assume you’re getting one from AF w/the spinloc? I’m not sure the super sear works w/the new trigger stuff… I could be wrong, or I could be saving you $60… If you’re getting the valve from Doug, his heavy spring won’t work with the new sear… Not sure why, but Doug posted about it… The barrel riding hammer you bought is for a LW. That guy doesn’t do cast stuff- only standard parts (like LW). I’m in the process of building one too- but I’m stuck on the raw extrusion I have… I have to check to see if it’s good, or scrap. Then I can proceed. I’ve got the valve and hammer spring (from Doug), the 4500 psi tank (DMan), tank cover (TT), and some trigger parts (old style) with a super sear for the extrusion if it works…
Caboose212 Its going okay other then the part of me still waiting on the frame from Airforce as we speak. It was suppose to be shipped by now I have no clue what the hold up is. I will call them tomorrow. The best part about posting this is so people can help me out with advice on everything. I just ordered a Lyman 2-Cavity Bullet Mold #257420 25 Caliber (258 Diameter) 65 Grain Flat Nose Gas Check from http://www.Midwayusa.com $71.99 and Handles for $36.49. It will be identical to Knifemaker’s after it gets machined. I just bought the money order which will be in the mail tomorrow for my new valve. I have to order a super sear and possibly a wokguard sometime this week if I get time away from fishing and as funds allow me. A big mistake I think I made was ordering a Barrel guiding Hammer that is made for a LW barrel not a TJ. So thats going to suck. Hopefully I”ll have more good news by the end of the week! Thanks again for everyone’s help. Raymond
Vrablic/theodore: how’s the build coming? Sorry for all the thread-jacking (assholes!! :rofl: ) but when these guys get going about the .257 stuff, it’s hard to stop! But it was all very good info, and very useful to you when you’re ready to shoot…
My fingers are really crossed on this for you Tedd! You have had far too many ups and downs trying to get this .257 project off the ground. Seems like every time you are on the verge of success, something comes up to screw up your plans. Un-Real!!!
I’m really wanting this to work out with your ED Gun Project.
Hopefully your other barrels will show up eventually.
Wish I could afford one of Smiths moulds to play with. Man he charges a LOT for them! 😯 Surely the workmanship can’t be that much better than NOE. I can find Nothing wrong with their work. I mean, if he is going to charge Custom prices, they should at least be custom molds. Custom means made to special order to the customers design. LOL!!! Not what the maker wants to make. 🙄
Hell, I’m still on the sizer to do list. 😆 😳
Knife
Hi Mike. Your post made me re read the 13 pages of the GTA link that I posted.
I don’t have a dog in this fight but: in his initial post; Bob said that his .250 boat tail design was designed for a TJ’s enterprise 25 auto barrel that is .243″ bore and .250″ groove and has a 1 in 14″ twist.
Bob told people that asked about the cast bullet working in a choked 25 cal air gun barrel that they could try it and see. He also told them that they might have to cut the choke off or buy a TJ’s barrel.
Bob based his barrel twist numbers from this site:
http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/external_ballistics.htm
The link seems to give the needed twist rates that you guys have found out to work in the real world.
Again: I don’t have a dog in this fight! Vrablic wanted a light weight .257″ cast slug and I posted another option for him.
I have ordered 4 molds from LBT, I sent Veral detailed Autocad prints that showed EXACTLY what I wanted. Not 1 of the 4 molds were what I asked for! Veral tends to make something that he thinks will work better for you than what you asked for.
I went with this group buy because, I thought that Veral would set his machine up for the mold and that I might be able to get a .259″ driving band version of it.
I got my Veral Smith .259″ version of Bob’s .250″ mold back after Erik at Hollowpointsmolds made 2 different sized HPs in it. It looks good! If my 28″ long TJ’s .250 bore, .257 groove barrel gets here Friday morning, I might be able to have it threaded and shoot it over the weekend.
I have the cut down Lyman 257420, the cut down NOE and the LBT HP mold to try out.
If none of the .257″ slugs work out, I will just put my 25 cal BSA barrel back on the Matador and forget this .257″ cast slugs bullshit!
Looking forward to your results Tedd!
I took a look at the thread you have linked at gta. The statement made there, “Ok, the schematic and e mail have been sent and I have requested a minimum required to make this happen.
LBT used to be all about custom molds but I don’t believe the profit was there for 1 mold here and 1 mold there considering machine setup.” Doesn’t make sense. 175. for a mold is already “Custom Price!
The Guy in the Darth Vader gorilla suite, is way off on his thoughts on twist and design. I don’t know what he is basing his dimensions on, but his twist rates are not what real world testing shows at all.
He goes on to say what Mr. Smith will and will not do in the mould making department. Without knowing what Mr Smith will land will not do. Seems obvious that he doesn’t know what the fuck he is talking about. He later backtracks his statements on what Smith can and cannot do, seemingly without ever knowing he has done it?
I would strongly suggest not basing any of your wants on the discussion there in relation to what will and what will not work in a bullet design. And they have totally missed the need to remove the choke in the different guns listed in order to obtain decent accuracy. Seems they don’t quite understand even the beginning basics of shooting bullets in Air guns.
And a last note, the .22 bullets are not for .224 bbl. as stated in the thread, but for the Beaumont and Sinner .223 ppc rifles. Not much of anything in the thread is correct! 😕
Rather than linking to GTA to get Ideas on what will work, I would highly suggest they link to the TAG under Other Guns “.257 Cast Bullet Guide” to see what really DOES Work!
Knife
I am trying to come up with a very accurate .257″ cast bullet, in the 46-48 grain weight area. I will shoot it in my Modified Edgun Matador and I hope/think that I can get at least 20 regulated shots at 850 fps or higher. I don’t care about shooting at 400 yards but, I am looking for 1/2 MOA accuracy (or better) out to 200 yards.
I have cut the Lyman 4 cavity 257420 and NOE 257 molds down to the 52-55 grain weight stage. I then sent them to Erik at Hollowpointmolds for HPs. I wanted something in the 45-48 grain area after the HP was added. Erik made me 2 different sized HP in each of the molds. They both ended up in the 47-50 grain weight area.
I then found this
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=58933.0
I ordered a mold from Veral but: I specified that I wanted the cast bullet to have the same overall dimensions BUT, I wanted the driving bands to be .259″ instead of the .250″ driving bands on the group buy. I also wanted .020″ cut off of the boat tail for the weight reduction. Veral had no problems modifying the mold and it dropped pure lead slugs at .259″ using pure lead. The pure lead slugs weighed 52 grains. A 4 cavity mold from Veral costs $175 plus $7.50 shipping.
I sent the 4 cavity LBT mold out to Erik and again had him set it up for 2 cavities with a standard HP and the other 2 cavities with a bigger HP.
I haven’t shot any of my cast bullets yet. Around 2 months ago, I sent my barrels out to a guy in Canada. He was going to cut the throat/lead in for me. US customs seized my barrels and then lost them! I am trying to find them and get them back! Long story, bunch of bullshit, don’t ask and this could only happen to me!
I ordered another .257 barrel from TJ’s and I hope to be up and shooting in another week or so.
If I can ever come up with a 1/2″ MOA .257″ cast bullet shooting Matador, you can bet your ass that I will post it here!
Gotta love the way this thing keeps double posting! 👿
HOwdy MAW!
Good Question. Cedric and I are kinda having different results. The 257420 has shot the tightes group, but I have many more fliers with it. May very well be that I have a hard time casting with it for some time. It is an iron mould, two cavity.
The NOE shoots mighty fine groups, and very-very few fliers. But my bullets look, or weigh better out of it for me.
Cedric shoot a LOT more very long range groups with his, and he has found the Lyman 257420 to reach out there a little for him. I on the other hand, can only get 80 to 100 yards here at the house. For this shorter range, the much wider flat point of the NOE doesn’t seem to effect it much at all. And has a much harder “hit” due to it’s large flat meplat design. Something the well Known in Hand Gun World made popular, and pioneered. It is an excellent hunting design.
But again, The differenced I am seeing in accuracy may very well be my inexperience in casting. 😳 The NOE mold seems like it has almost no idea as to how to cast a bad bullet. The Lyman demands more attention and a higher pressure in the pour.
I do better with tee Lyman with a manual dipping and pour regiment, and the NOE responds wonderfully with the Bottom Pour pot. And with it I can cast almost 4-5 times the number of bullets with very high quality in the NOE.
My usual session with the Lyman, gives me around 200-250 bullets, and the NOE with the bottom pour pot gives me 120- to 1400 bullets for the same amount of time.
And it is a hell of a lot less messy, without getting dross all over the place! 😆
Cedric tells me that I can get a very similar design to the 420 form another mold maker in an alu. multi cavity mold like the NOE mold. Thinking of trying that route to see what happens. 😉
Knife
HOwdy MAW!
Good Question. Cedric and I are kinda having different results. The 257420 has shot the tightes group, but I have many more fliers with it. May very well be that I have a hard time casting with it for some time. It is an iron mould, two cavity.
The NOE shoots mighty fine groups, and very-very few fliers. But my bullets look, or weigh better out of it for me.
Cedric shoot a LOT more very long range groups with his, and he has found the Lyman 257420 to reach out there a little for him. I on the other hand, can only get 80 to 100 yards here at the house. For this shorter range, the much wider flat point of the NOE doesn’t seem to effect it much at all. And has a much harder “hit” due to it’s large flat meplat design. Something the well Known in Hand Gun World made popular, and pioneered. It is an excellent hunting design.
But again, The differenced I am seeing in accuracy may very well be my inexperience in casting. 😳 The NOE mold seems like it has almost no idea as to how to cast a bad bullet. The Lyman demands more attention and a higher pressure in the pour.
I do better with tee Lyman with a manual dipping and pour regiment, and the NOE responds wonderfully with the Bottom Pour pot. And with it I can cast almost 4-5 times the number of bullets with very high quality in the NOE.
My usual session with the Lyman, gives me around 200-250 bullets, and the NOE with the bottom pour pot gives me 120- to 1400 bullets for the same amount of time.
And it is a hell of a lot less messy, without getting dross all over the place! 😆
Cedric tells me that I can get a very similar design to the 420 form another mold maker in an alu. multi cavity mold like the NOE mold. Thinking of trying that route to see what happens. 😉
Knife
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Well RC,
I cant say with total confidence what exactly it needs to be done to make it work, it does appear that it will indeed work afterall. I will certainly be sure to keep everyone posted. I believe as you do, that Dyotat is the genius and master with this AF as a bullet slinger platform. Give him enough time to attack it and he will get it definatively worked out with what the solution should require. I know that I really like the feel of the newer designed trigger system. I have never experienced the old system with the supersear installed but I do know that I did notice quite the difference when I tried a stock trigger. The two different old styled triggers I have shot were greatly different from each other and neither were as crisp as my new styled trigger. After going through disassembly and gaining a better understanding of how this equalibrium bridged trigger mousetrap thing kinda works, it doesnt exude tons of confidence and begs to remind you not to forget basic gun handling safety. The new trigger especially with the way that it positively locks :rofl: the striker release seems like a no brainer, and necessary liability upgrade for AirForce to institute into their design.
Yeah Roach I kinda conteplated the possible ramifications that the hammer might have riding along the barrel. Pondered what type of vibrations are induced as that spring pops the striker down the barrel. The problem is that the barrel is what keeps the thing launching straight down its pathway. Additionally it requires a bit of a sloppy fit so as not to drag. Of course the striker release requires itself to drag along the hammer already. I thought of several more exotic ideas of incorporating roller bearings of one type of configuration or another . Closest practical thought was maybe something similiar to a pillow block type bearing as used on a linear slide…
How about the striker release being some sort of radial bearing that locks up? I dunno just daydreaming….. Funny thing how some things kinda go full circle. As we get higher pressure and bigger valves that require overcoming greater force to open, this design is becoming more and more reminescent of a old fashioned springer like a good old daisy . :butkick: :rofl: I am going to go lookup that Evanix thingy so I can refer to it when AF comes out with this newUpscale RC Designer bottle gun.