Help tuning- <12 ft lbs. For those in the know
Hi there,
I know most of you are used to work on much higher power, i wonder if you could give me some advice with regards to setting a consistent power/speed for my needs.
My rifle arrived in uk already set up by Ed, at 11.5 ft lbs.
The hammer spring screw is almost all out, with about 3 threads still in.
I wanted to check its consistence so i chronoed it on several occasions.
My aim was to get 570 fps with jsb exact 15.9 grain, wich translates to 11.5 Ft lbs and thereabouts, which is a safe limit i don’t want to exceed.
Anything above 582fps would be above the limit.
I have found however inconsistence between shots, up to 20fps, so i’m obliged to keep the speed at 550fps, to avoid breaching.
550fps is too slow and it changes the poi a lot beyond 50yds.
The changes in speed occur both during the same refill, and from a fill to another.
I.e, i set it a 570 and i think i got a good consistence, then refill and find out 20ps dofference.
I don’t think temperature influences that much, as such changes can be seen in a matter of minutes.
I fill at 220 bar (my bottle gauge) which is 210 on the gun’s one.
I think the power is higher to start with and then goes down and settles at 170bar, but you appreciate police will fill at 200 and start counting from there!!
Initially i thought the spring was beddin in, and needed to be broken in before settling at its final elasticity, but i’ve shot about 2000 pellets and i guess i should have happened already (or do i need more?)
Im currently trying to make veeery small adjustments at time, rather then moving the screw too much, slowly incresing, let’s see what happens.
However i would muh appreciate your thoughts with regards on how to obtain the best speed consistence.
I hear you unscrew the regulator 1/3 of turn and then decrease the spring tension, i guess i should do the opposite, so that more power needs to be applied from the hammer to discharge the air. This way i can tighten the screw a bit more, as right now i think it is so decompressed that it doesn’t “get” or “keep” the fine adjustments i make to its tension.
I hope you know what i mean.
Anyway i would much prefer to find a solution without having to strip down the gun.
I thought wih a regulated rifle i should have not bother with this shite, but it now seems i can’t enjoy using it as im always there checking the speed.
That’s very disappointing i must say.
Any help appreciated.
Cheers.
All Replies
Thanks Naser,
What’s your thread’s title? I’ll check it out.
What puzzles me is what is the meaning of the speed gradually going down?
Knowing that might help me understand what’s wrong and what to do.
If the speed goes down, without touching the hst, then it means that the pressure of the reg goes down with each shot, as the overall pressure of the cylinder decreases..
Well, what kind of “regulator” can’t keep the pressure steady over a full charge?
I’m starting to think tha the reg pressure is not the issue, is the regulator itself that is rubbish.
Furthermore, of the speed decreases with the shots (as pressure decreases) wouldn’t it make sense to actually INCREASE the reg pressure?
Anyway, this regulator doesn’t regulate shit, this is my opinion right now.
Thanks bud
1/4 turn wont do much if you need 12ft/lb, i have my Edgun .25 at around 100-110 Bar.
Turn it 1/2 a turn each time & check my old thread on how to set the regulator “The easy way” i change mine in like 10minutes max.
I am not sure whats the lowest you can go.
Ok
Reg pressure decreased 1/4 of turn clockwise comparing to stock (stock is 130bar ).
The speed goes slowly down (20-30fps) within 100 shots.
Any idea how to move forward from here?
1-Shall i try decrease the pressure 1/2 turn clockwise or even more (i have been told for a .22 @ 12fpe usually the reg is set at 80bars, way down from where i am!).
2- shall i revert to stock and forget about it and conclude that madator is no precise science and tuning it is anyone’s guess!?
Thanks all
Hi Naser
Right now i’m trying to make it consistent with what i have got, trying to keep it stock.
So far is not much the reduction of power but the shot to shot and fill to fill consistency that is troubling me.
When i run ot of option i’ll choke the port, for now i’ll keep playing with the reg, which is reasonably “easy” to do.
However, if i’m not mistaken, if i don’t sort out the consistency coming from the reg, even if i choke the port i might still get erratic speed. It would be less speed, but still erratic.
I feel the reg is the core of the tuning.
If you get to get the regulator to be “regular”, the rest of things will follow!
Changing the spring is more troublesome as i wouldn’t know where to get a suitable one and the the variables will be even more!
I’m confident i’ll get there without major part replacements.
We shall see!
if you choke the trasfer port, than you can make it much lower power add the reduction of regulator + hammer spring & your set.
OG
Thanks for the drawings!
I thought the air removal tool, had just the thread to catch the valve and had Just to be screwed on top of it to remove the air, i see you need to insert an allen bolt into it to actually press on the air valve pin… Is it because the thread on the valve is not long enough to allow fine movements of the tool? (just curious).
Anyway, regarding my >12fpe tuning, yeah, lots to read!
Take your time and check the strings, so curious to know what you think.
The update is that i fired a couple of shots after leaving the rifle alone overnight, and the speed had gone up for the first few shots.
I reduced the hst a little.
I still want to give this setting a couple oF full fills before going back and play with the reg again. Afterall i’m still at the second refill after the reg movements, and i have fired just 40shots or so.
However if this setting proves unstable, Unless you are against it, next time i’ll reduce the reg pressure to 1/2 turn clockwise. What the hell!
Glad to have you back!
Cheers!
Yoda and Endo; I just got back and I have kinda read thru your posts. Kinda sorta! You guys have been busy!
Yoda, here is a pic of the air tube pressure removal tool that I made. Way back when, when Mamcrakin and I were first getting into and tuning our Matadors, I made a few of the air removal tools. I sent my last extra one to Endo.
PS: My sloppy drawings ARE NOT TO SCALE! š
It has M12 X 1.0 pitch threads, for Ā½ā and has Ā¼ā X 20 pitch threads for the allen head bolt that is turned into the air valve pin to release the air pressure. I realize that the rest of the world doesnāt use standard SAE threads any more and you can substitute the Ā¼ X 20 pitch with any metric thread allen screw. I screw the tool onto the threaded end of the air valve and then turn the allen screw into the air valve rod. It works very well and is a whole lot less dramatic than using Tedās broomstick!
Just ask Endo.
The pic also shows the longer HST screw. I make it from a M10 X 1.0 pitch bolt that has longer threads than the stock Matadorās HST adjuster. I didnāt supply the depth of the 0.290ā bore end as Ed uses different bore depth on his guns. If you take your HST adjuster to your machinist, just have him make the .290ā bore around Ā¼ā deeper that your stock HST screw. If the screw bottoms out before you get the needed adjustment, just file a little off of the threaded end and you should be good to go.
The locking collar is made from a M10 X 1.0 pitch nut that is turned down in a lathe.
I think i can still move out my hst by 1-2 full turns.
This might dampen an increase of speed of 100fps or so.
So i think 6:00 is still feasible.
I’m glad i’m seeing some result as you can really tell i was about to give up.
The part i don’t like at all is removing the air, the way that Ed holdover does is a bit of a pain. I must try get that tool that Tedd posted somewhere else, that screws on the valve an releases the air wothout the need of primitive wooden sticks!
If i get the precise specs (a drawing with diameters etc would be perfect) I have got a cnc shop just down the road.
Without specs or drawing it would be hard to have one made.
I might go to the shop with my matador… But then they would just hand all the money they have got to me and shit their pants before i even ask them what i need!:)
As far as i’m concerned oldgoat has deserved his break, he has been very kind hElping me through the process… Let’s give him some more time off!!;)
Yoda, it looks good so far. I think you are in the right track. I have to turned my reg down by 1/3 turn from the stock setting (920 fps) to reach ~870 fps. Then I started from there to fine tune the reg and HST with goal to reach ~880-890 fps. I am now in the process of gradually increase reg pressure. In your case, it seems reasonable to reduce the reg at least by one full turn. I don’t know if the reg pressure is proportional (or linear) to the amount of turns. But I think reduce it to 6:00 would be a good start.
I encountered the same problem that the HST screw is not long enough to hold the spring steady. The screw I got from Dr. Edgun allows me to have 2 full turns to play with. Another option is to get a shorter or weaker spring since you don’t need that gigantic stock spring.
Dr. Edgun is having fun in Chicago and should be back this evening if his “friend” is not that “demanding”. š
Endo
Hi Dave
After struggling so much, and having had a couple of leaks in the process (due to bad lubing) for now i will give this set up a few refills to see what happens.
Anyway, a quarter of turn clockwise is pretty repeatable, so i might give it further tries at 1/2 turn, 3/4 turn clockwise and see the difference.
Not sure about 1 turn clockwise as it sounds pretty drastic…
However, the more i turn it clockwise, the less tension i should give to the hst, (as the speed goes up).
here comes the problem as i’m almost at the end of the hammer spring tension screw and i don’t think i have much thread left inside.
The other problem is that the less the haMmer Spring tension is, the more “wobbly” the spring becomes, hence It might not keep the tension steady if it is too decompressed.
I’ll keep u updated, i think more and more matadors will be inported to the uk, it seems to me that they are not very well tuned out of the box, so it might be useful for other people as well..
I wish Eduard had done it before shipping them.
I saw a video showing how he sets the speed of the rifles…
He shots a couple of shots, then adjusts the hst one or two times, then “they are good to go!”…
I hink that by now we all know that that’s far from fine tuning these guns, i appreciate he might not have time enough to shoot a string for each gun, but come on, 1600Ā£ -regulated- gun, and such shot inconsistency… Very poor if you ask me.
Cheers
I’ve been lurking here and looking at your results.
You are correct that the regulator will have to be turned WAY down to be a consistent 12 ft/lbs. I don’t know how fine the adjustment for the regulator pressure is, however for 12 ft/lbs the pressure will have to be reduces quite a bit.
I almost want to suggest turning the regulator down at least a full turn, It might well get more consistent between fills and also would give you a higher shot count.
However I’ve never worked on an edgun, I’m not a stranger to regulated setups.
I disassembled the rifle again.
First of all i wrote i had incresed the reg to 12:10, however after chcking it was more 12:07. Sorry, so what written above refers to reg pressure at 12:07.
Anyway, i decresed the pressure more, this time at 12:15 (a quarter of turn clockwise).
The following is the first string after reassembly and refilling to 190bars (couldn’t go any higher as my bottle has beeused a lot- i hope it doesn’t matter if i couldn’t reach 200bars..)
Shots 1 and 2 As expected the speed had gone much up, keeping the old hst tension
After 3 shots i decresed the hst
3 559 561 59 59 (here i started to re-increase the hst+) 72 72 69 66 67 69 66 69 69 71 71 70 69 (20 shots) 68 60 71 69 67 69 66 68 64 65 64 63,62 61
60 58 58 56 54 53 (40 shots) i realized it was going down but i decided not yet to increase the hst) 57 52 52 54 52 51 52 49 (here i increased the hts for the last time) 68 73 69 68 68 69 65 67 67 68 66 (60 shots) 67 67 69 66 65 66 65 66 66 67 68 69 64 64 66 66 66 65 65 64 (80 shots) 66 65 62 63 60 61 62 62 60 62 62 63 64 63 63 65 63 63 65 68 67 (100 shots)
64 67 66 67 64 64 62 63 62 64 65 66 66 65 67 67 66 68 65 (120 shots)
65 69 69 69 65 66 63 68 67 67 66 68 65 73(? Not sure here) 66 66 67 67 68 66(140 shots) 67 68 68 66 65 66 65 66 66 67 68 69 64 64 66 66 66 65 65 69 (160 shots)
68 68 69 68 66 65 65 68 69 (here i was at118 bar) 69 66 68 69 66 67 68 66 67 68 70 (180 shots) 68 67 69 67 71 71 73 77 (here i was at 110 bar and the reg went off.
Refilled the gun at 190 bar and kept my fingers crossed:
I shot 15 shots and i was in the range of 558-560.
I’m tired and i will keep shooting later, however this is the first time i refill and the speed keeps pretty much the same.
And it is also the 2nd refill after the reg adjstment, so it is promising as it has not even moved much from the first fill when i tuned the hst.
My conclusion, so far:
The stock reg pressure was too much.
Giving it a 12:07 turn wasn’t enough as speed between fills was going up.
12:15 so far is promising, as it keeps a good consistence and after the second refill speed is pretty much where i left it, and certainly not higher.
Considering i filled at 190 and not at 210 as i usually do, i got the same if not more amount of shots (better air efficiency, i guess this is a good sign?)
Updates later!
Thanks for the instructions, very clear.
The forst thing that strikes me is that i’ve never reached the phase were i increase the hst further and the speed drops.
This is why i reduced the reg pressure 1/6 of turn.
But still every time i increse the hst tension the speed increases.
The key of my problem lies there.
Still not figured out if i need more or less reg pressure than what i’m at the moment. From your instruction then i need less reg pressure..
I hope OG will be able to shed some lights of what’s going on…
Thanks again for the advice!
Those questions are too “deep” and beyond my knowledge on how Matador is set and behaves. Dr. Edgun should be able to give you some ideas.
This is how I tune my gun, based on my limited knowledge and experience.
1) Adjust regulator to where you think it should be at (I havenāt find it yet for my gun)
2) Fill the gun and turn the HST two turns out (reduce HST)
3) Shoot 5 pellets to ensure the HST is reduced enough to the speed around 100 fps below your target speed (my target speed is 890 and HST should start around 790 for my gun)
4) Shoot 5-shot (or 10-shot) group for each increment in HST (i.e., turing in the screw 1/8-turn for each tension increment) and record the speed vs. tension (1st increment, 2nd incrementā¦)
5) The amount of speed increase vs. tension increment should taper off and reach the plateau (this is the optimal tension for the reg you set). The speed will drop if you further increase the tension. This is commonly referred as ā1st peakā.
6) The optimal tension might not match the speed you want (e.g., if the speed is lower than your target speed, see #7 below)
7) Increase reg pressure (or decrease reg pressure if the speed is too high)
8) Repeat the process from #2 to #7 (goal is to find the balance between reg pressure and HST for your desire speed).
9) Hoping the sweet spot is identifiedā¦END
Endo
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I think you need to try leaving the reg were it is and give it some more hammer spring so you’re getting a constant strike.
it makes sense to me if your hammer isn’t hitting hard enough then the valve isnt oping far and/or long enough for the speeds to be “regulated”
… now , I do not have an ed gun nor have I ever played with one, but from following this and other threads this is what’s making sense in my little brain :11: