The rogue will never die!!!
😀 😀 😀
Here is the article I am mocking.
http://www.crosman.com/croswords/?p=2643
Its some guy probally getting paid to hunt with the rouge, I did not read in great detail. Shaggy they use some big words.
😆
One thing I noticed they said the shot went straight through at 7o yards but I dont see a boolit hole. ❓
Now lets get to their claims.
“We stalked in and I shot freehanded at 70 yards. The Nosler Ballistic Tip passed straight through, causing massive trauma on the way,”
You put a hole into it, I am assuming it hardly deformed.
” remarks on its affordability by those familiar with big bore airguns.”
What!!! I know haley products have had a shady past, I have read the multiple threads but you can get one of his guns putting out more fpe for half the price. And daqs are about this price right? With nice blueing and walnut stocks not some star wars gun.
“The introduction of the Benjamin Rogue .357 in 2011 sent shockwaves through the industry as the company established a beachhead in big bore territory. Targeting imported european air rifles starting at $2000, the Rogue’s electronic valve technology and $1300 price point not only got the attention of airgunners, but of its target market among traditional firearm hunters. After extensive field use by these hunting customers and reviewing their feedback, Benjamin has updated the rifle for 2012.”
You can get a imported eurpean rifle for 1000 bucks, a royale for 1400 and shoot the piss out of it, but you can pull a roach creeck and then its a little more 😆
And I dont think everyone wanting a 22 cal 30fpe light hunter/ plinker is looking for a storm trooper weapon big bore? Or is that just me?
” Heavy Medium / Heavy High and Light Medium / Light High”
Those are the dumbest power level labels I have ever heard. ??? Vegetarian meat burger….
“Where traditional big bore air rifles get one great shot,”
Bull shit its usually 2 with most big bores, and a solid follow up, some of the smaller ones up to 5 or more. Sam yang….
“Rogue set to Heavy (grain weight) High (power) gets three at a targeted 200 fpe. Set to Heavy Medium, this increases to 7 great shots at 180 fpe.
When the shooter goes with a lightweight bullet (135 grains or less) set to high power they can expect four shots at a targeted 176 fpe. Set to Light Medium, the shot count goes up to 12 with 148 fpe.
More reliability, more consistency. And more shots than big bore airguns at any price level.”
Gamo.
“The Rogue has been the first big bore gun for many of its owners and we wanted to enable the option of a handpump for those folks who may not want to invest in a tank or don’t have an easy way to get a tank filled,”
There is actually a famous pirate from hawaii who has taken pigs and mongoose alike with new to the market technology big bores filled by….A HAND PUMP!
Then they have this video at the bottom. It is titled benjamin rogue worlds most powerful production rifle.
The rogue is whatever, but they are becoming like gamo with this marketing. Honestly I am used to hyped velocity figures but that article is full of blatant lies.
😡 And powder burner guys are not gonna be happy when they see what else is out there for there 1300 dollars.
I should have my 308 back from Jack next week by the way 😀
All Replies
If we take that one guys load of 158/1700 FPS, in order to get it to 600 FPS striking velocity with velocity decay due to range, he would have to be 900 yards away from that deer.
Now if you posed the same question to those Marlin shooters but plugged in range, how many would recommend the 357 Marlin at 900 yards?
Being that they are knowledgable hunters, I’m thinking you would get no takers.
One morning while drinking coffee at my place on the mountain, I saw a yearling walking and grazing headed uphill, at 30 yards out my front door.
I had a Marlin 45 Cowboy gun with a tang peep sight that I competed with in SASS, loaded with black powder 45 LC loads and 250 grain SWC’s. It was one of the most accurate lever guns I have owned.
I very carefully opened the door, with a very firm rest, I shot her in the ribs. Now I have taken that shot with maybe 75 or more deer using a 22 CCI solid mini mag at 1000 FPS out of my silenced 22 and made a lot of meat.
She lept forward out of the smoke cloud and disappeared above the house. I finished my coffee and after about 30 minutes gathered up my backpack, hunting knife to go butcher her.
I never found her, there was no place for her to go if wounded that I would have not seen the Ravens and magpies working on her, they would show lost game or even a gut pile 95% of the time. And if they did not my Aussie would have.
Evidently that big slug going thru her ribs, missed all blood vessels or pushed them out of the way and she survived.
Now I consider the 45 LC a real killer, but it wasn’t that day.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Most .357 marlins are at least twice the fpe as the Rouge and I would say that more than 80 percent of the deer hunters that hunt with them will keep their shots to under 75 yards and more inline with 50 for clean kills . Marvin
From MD DNR site:
Marvin,
If we take that one guys load of 158/1700 FPS, in order to get it to 600 FPS striking velocity with velocity decay due to range, he would have to be 900 yards away from that deer.
Now if you posed the same question to those Marlin shooters but plugged in range, how many would recommend the 357 Marlin at 900 yards?
Being that they are knowledgable hunters, I’m thinking you would get no takers.
One morning while drinking coffee at my place on the mountain, I saw a yearling walking and grazing headed uphill, at 30 yards out my front door.
I had a Marlin 45 Cowboy gun with a tang peep sight that I competed with in SASS, loaded with black powder 45 LC loads and 250 grain SWC’s. It was one of the most accurate lever guns I have owned.
I very carefully opened the door, with a very firm rest, I shot her in the ribs. Now I have taken that shot with maybe 75 or more deer using a 22 CCI solid mini mag at 1000 FPS out of my silenced 22 and made a lot of meat.
She lept forward out of the smoke cloud and disappeared above the house. I finished my coffee and after about 30 minutes gathered up my backpack, hunting knife to go butcher her.
I never found her, there was no place for her to go if wounded that I would have not seen the Ravens and magpies working on her, they would show lost game or even a gut pile 95% of the time. And if they did not my Aussie would have.
Evidently that big slug going thru her ribs, missed all blood vessels or pushed them out of the way and she survived.
Now I consider the 45 LC a real killer, but it wasn’t that day.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Marlin 357 .Marvin
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/1894/6208-marlin-1894-357-magnum-deer.html
absolutely RC, no argument with any of that
as far as asking within the ranks of firearms folks…a great many of them are the most unethical bastards there are
if you are killing an animal that’s not a problem or a meat source for you just to make the kill or get a trophy to hang on the wall then thats about the most unethical shit there is
then there is the common practice of using a sledge hammer when the proper tool is a cooper’s hammer…too much gun for the prey
folks using ultra magnums on Deer sized game and just trashing most of the meat, particularly when the idgits gut or ass shoot Bambi
point is there is a delicate balance to all this in meat hunting
different story if you a stalking two legged critters or other dangerous game.
been stating for years that the best way to equate big bore AGs is with black powder cap and ball revolvers…things like 9mm/357 roughly work out to a .36 Navy Colt and .45s to an 1860 Army, at best a 3rd Model Dragoon…certainly they just will never work into say the ballistics of my Parker Hale Whitworth .451. Just the nature of these things.
Key point in all this is to examine what was being used after the War between the States in the great Buffalo slaughter…wasn’t many Sharps.
Quite a few Rolling Blocks but truly there were more folks out there Bison hunting with crap like Spencers and Maynards, even .44 rimfire Henrys than anything else to begin with…talk about miserible FPE yet in the late 60s that was state of the art firepower
the Brits had better logic for the most part but even there stalking rifles were pretty low powered…it was when you went after dangerous game you applied a .450, .500 or .577 express round
no such thing is too much gun when you are after African Lion, Bengal Cats…muchless Elephant. Rhino or Hippo
I realize we are butting heads over my candid view of the historical record and personal experience versus your own tremendous experience, much of which was high mountain desert with vastly greater distances in many cases RC
Here your average shot at a Deer can often be measured in mere feet in the underbrush and forest, same with slough hunting in the Dakotas.
200 FPE is marginal here but it will certainly do the job
but where you are shooting 100 yards or better it’s a stupid choice 😉
A 200 FPE 38 rifle should never, I repeat never be allowed as a deer rifle.
Again, as I stated before in some hands it would work, I can see guys killing deer in their yards out hte window, but the general hunting population does not have the skill to consistantly make kills with such a rifle.
For Crosman to promote such a tool as a deer hunting rifle is unethical.
In the PB crowd they would laugh at you for even suggesting such a thing, but airgunners, in their flawed logic seem to feel if it is air powered it has some magical quality to it.
Their’s is a flawed logic based on inexperience in the game fields.
According to Handloads.com 200 FPE is a 38 caliber 150 grain slug hitting at 600 FPS, and were talking about the FPE at the range where the animal is hit, not off the muzzle. 150 at 600 FPE is 1880’s technology.
I have in the past shot some very dangerous animals at contact wound distances with a lot more FPE and I am here to tell you it was far from enough.
Regards,
Roachcreek
RC:
no argument that it’s not wise for a company to promote 200FPE as Deer medicine to the average dumb assed American consumer
my point is in the right hands it has proven more than ample again and again and for several hundred years
you want crazy?
up until fairly recently South Koreans commonly used .22 and .25 air rifles to take both Roe Deer and Wild Boar…thats what the now vintage Yewha pump pneumatic was designed for
and bear in mind per their governments own stats there are over half a million air gun hunters in that nation!
mind you even airguns are required to be stored at the police station between seasons
Yes I know a .25 Yewha spitting it’s round ball at 900 odd FPS seems truly underpowered but with nothing more than that the Koreans managed to hunt a few species into near extinction
same deal in the Philippines where low FPE big bore CO2 rifles were and still are used to dispatch game all the way up to Water Buffalo
and I can list off a few other places like this in the far east and South America
I guess the point I am trying to make is that while I consider the Rogue an over hyped designed by comittee boondogle it’s not because it lacks power to do the job in the right hands
sure there are far better tools out there for basically similar money, your XP for example
and thats the real folly of the Rogue story 😉
Jim (echochap) finally did post some groups. They are not bad and at 75 yards according to his results an eastern deer would seem to be a fair kill.
I’m no master hunter so you guys can flail it out but the results so far indicate to me that 200fpe well aimed is enough.
So, a bunch of bitching on the net has got Crosman to make fixes and even got JC to post his groups (and promise more post re-programming).
Crosman continues on the BS marketing plan and even though the last hunt wasn’t their canned hunt (apparently), it was a hunt filmed and played out to get on the Pro-Staff roster…
Interesting… not as interesting as mainlining whiskey and head shots on swimming bears but interesting all the same…
Now compare the Rogue dbacle to the Evanix drama going on the last couple of weeks.
Guns were shipped, they had some problems and the problems have been worked thru.
And the South Koreans could have gone to the DMZ for a high fence hunt of some North Koreans and they completely resisted the marketing ploy. 😛
RS,
I have hunted deer with those black powder cartridges such as the 45 LC in a lever gun, and I am here to tell you you need to step into the 20th and 21st century, the equipment is far better.
The Rogue is stil underpowered as a deer cartridge and you know it and I know it, we also know it is unethical to advertise and promote it as such.
Regards,
Roachcreek
I expect a box full of $1000 bills to show up at my door from Chip before I expect to see any groups. 😉
I skimmed the Yellow but was too lazy to actually dig for what I suspected wasn’t even there. 😀
So I take it the promised groups are still top secret?
🙄 Come on bro, did you really expect groups? For more years than i can count, on airgun forums, whenever someone sais “FINALLY got the gun today and its a powerhouse and a tack driver, WILL POST GROUPS TOMORROW” and they never do, the gun is NOT a shooter….lol! Might get flamed for that one but so far, it’s proven true.
The trend is, that person keeps hyping the gun without showing proof, then, we go out an buy said gun and waste our money. At least i have. I bought a few guns cause someone said, “the gun is a powerhouse and a tack driver”
sure you can mainline booze, real common on extremely rural parts of canuck reservations, they do it simply because they can get hammered on a great deal less and extend their bottle’s life
do I reccomend it?
nope, likely kill most folks…then again the natives we had where I grew up ate Sterno fuel like Jello and drank Lysol on the rocks
crazy thing was many of those old winos lived into their 80s!
RC:
like I stated, in most cases larger calibers are compensation for lack of skill with the smaller ones when it comes to killing a grass eating something that weighs in at the same weight as your typical human.
all the way up through the Civil War and for a great spell after small bores ruled the roost for putting meat in most folks larder
granted in the West it was different, larger game and greater distances but in the forests of the midwest and east rimfires and pipsqueek centerfires like the .25-20 and .32-20 were popular Deer rounds up through the Depression when certain interests decided to legeslate and regulate them away mostly due to greed…
lots of this was being promoted by special interest groups of wealthy eastern hunters, you know…the pricks that kill to hang a fucking head on the wall and throw away the meat and were financed to an extant by Americas leading arms companies that saw serious advantage in making vast numbers of rounds illegal to hunt with
meant they could hopefully sell new higher power rifles to the public as well as more expensive ammo
now on the head shot debate, true if you are offered a side take the heart or lung but if you are using subsistance hunting methods like shining deer the head is your best choice, too easy to screw up when bambi is facing you in the spotlight.
with Bear and Moose, we usually took them when they were swimming from island to island…just pull the kicker boat up alongside them and plant the barrel against the side of the head…bang!
then it was just a matter of throwing a rope on the carcass and dragging it to shore.
to be absolutely candid, in my opinion 99% of todays “sportsmen” would starve in the woods if left to their own devices with a rifle, knife and hatchet
ethics are for those who hunt at the meat counter in the Grocery store
So I take it the promised groups are still top secret?
TJ,
Why couldn’t you mainline whiskey, hell I put Big Macs with cheese in the blender and mainline them all the time. By going direct I avoid acid reflux:wink:
Regards,
Roachcreek
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
natives have been doing it for decades
crazy indians have even been known to take Polar Bear with .22s which really is insane in my book
then again I’ve known savages in the wilderness that mainlined whiskey with a hypodermic
Black Bear are easy kills
Moose you caught in the water swiming, pulled up next to them in a boat and head shot them
Deer you shined
this was mostly on Canuck indian reservations with my native friends
I knew a guy who used to shoot up johnny red.