The rogue will never die!!!
😀 😀 😀
Here is the article I am mocking.
http://www.crosman.com/croswords/?p=2643
Its some guy probally getting paid to hunt with the rouge, I did not read in great detail. Shaggy they use some big words.
😆
One thing I noticed they said the shot went straight through at 7o yards but I dont see a boolit hole. ❓
Now lets get to their claims.
“We stalked in and I shot freehanded at 70 yards. The Nosler Ballistic Tip passed straight through, causing massive trauma on the way,”
You put a hole into it, I am assuming it hardly deformed.
” remarks on its affordability by those familiar with big bore airguns.”
What!!! I know haley products have had a shady past, I have read the multiple threads but you can get one of his guns putting out more fpe for half the price. And daqs are about this price right? With nice blueing and walnut stocks not some star wars gun.
“The introduction of the Benjamin Rogue .357 in 2011 sent shockwaves through the industry as the company established a beachhead in big bore territory. Targeting imported european air rifles starting at $2000, the Rogue’s electronic valve technology and $1300 price point not only got the attention of airgunners, but of its target market among traditional firearm hunters. After extensive field use by these hunting customers and reviewing their feedback, Benjamin has updated the rifle for 2012.”
You can get a imported eurpean rifle for 1000 bucks, a royale for 1400 and shoot the piss out of it, but you can pull a roach creeck and then its a little more 😆
And I dont think everyone wanting a 22 cal 30fpe light hunter/ plinker is looking for a storm trooper weapon big bore? Or is that just me?
” Heavy Medium / Heavy High and Light Medium / Light High”
Those are the dumbest power level labels I have ever heard. ??? Vegetarian meat burger….
“Where traditional big bore air rifles get one great shot,”
Bull shit its usually 2 with most big bores, and a solid follow up, some of the smaller ones up to 5 or more. Sam yang….
“Rogue set to Heavy (grain weight) High (power) gets three at a targeted 200 fpe. Set to Heavy Medium, this increases to 7 great shots at 180 fpe.
When the shooter goes with a lightweight bullet (135 grains or less) set to high power they can expect four shots at a targeted 176 fpe. Set to Light Medium, the shot count goes up to 12 with 148 fpe.
More reliability, more consistency. And more shots than big bore airguns at any price level.”
Gamo.
“The Rogue has been the first big bore gun for many of its owners and we wanted to enable the option of a handpump for those folks who may not want to invest in a tank or don’t have an easy way to get a tank filled,”
There is actually a famous pirate from hawaii who has taken pigs and mongoose alike with new to the market technology big bores filled by….A HAND PUMP!
Then they have this video at the bottom. It is titled benjamin rogue worlds most powerful production rifle.
The rogue is whatever, but they are becoming like gamo with this marketing. Honestly I am used to hyped velocity figures but that article is full of blatant lies.
😡 And powder burner guys are not gonna be happy when they see what else is out there for there 1300 dollars.
I should have my 308 back from Jack next week by the way 😀
All Replies
Jim,
No doubt it can be done, but do we arm americas hunter in mass with such a folly?
Telling them it is a good deer rifle and good for african game?
ON the MP5 SD, a friend I worked with at PPD who had taken a mental retirement for a few years from just simply killing more people than his soul could stand, went out of retirement and worked for the very rural Co SO.
He was a superb cop and also a shootist who loved machineguns. He bought a MP5SD and he used it on everything he could get an excuse t shoot.
Then one day he had to put a range bull down that had been crippled by a log truck and was still standing.
He found it grossly underpowered and eventually traded it for a 51 which when you rap off a burst with that baby thing fell, but if you did not have hearing protection you would not need any from then on.
But he shot a lot of animals with that gun and like I say found it was simply a 38 Special with a light bullet due to the short barrel.
I myself have killed perhaps a 100 deer with a silenced 22, if I hit the heart or the lungs and ruptured blood vessels in was a killer, but a good trailing dog was good to have around also.
I found from personal experience, not from listiening to old hunters besting each others tails, that head shot are a very poor choice and I am surprised you recommend them.
First shot placement is critical and in the brush, you don’t always have the luxery of a perfect shot, not to mention the angle skull will deflect a round very easily.
Yes some shooters can drop them with a .177 if the stars are aligned and you are a very good shot, but how many hnters taking the field are? A but a double lung or a heart shot is a much better choice.
Like I say, you can kill a deer or a man with a #2 lead pencil, but should game commisions adopt that policy?
There is a very good reason they don’t and I have to say they probaby have more information on the subject than a pellet gun company and its high fence hunters with a bucket of dry corn..
Regaards,
Roachcreek
in the damn side of the head or eye
natives have been doing it for decades
crazy indians have even been known to take Polar Bear with .22s which really is insane in my book
then again I’ve known savages in the wilderness that mainlined whiskey with a hypodermic
Black Bear are easy kills
Moose you caught in the water swiming, pulled up next to them in a boat and head shot them
Deer you shined
this was mostly on Canuck indian reservations with my native friends
@ Riverside where do you have to shot the bear with a 22 to kill it? Not a hunter so I had to ask.
Okay my friends, {even you Jerry} a wee tiny bit of insight
what does your average grass eating non dangerous bambi weigh in at?
what does your average omniverous highly violent human weigh in at?
in the days of old in the British Empire the rule of thumb was that you hunted men with no less a round than you might use on other dangerous game like Bengal Tiger or African Lion
this meant .577 Howdahs, certainly no less than a .476
now lets contrast that with todays SWAT and SOG units using H&K MP5SDs for tactical takedowns
more often than not the SD is clocked to semi and used with an optic
thing to bear in mind is that the SD even running full house 115 grain 9mm is doing well to achieve the FPE of the .38 S&W loaded with solid leads and BP
yet this is the current standard for dangerous two legged predators outside say, the sandbox
consider as well that the vast bulk of flint and percussion rifles built for the east and midwest started their lives in bores no larger than .36
the vast bulk were .30s and .32s yet our ancestors made major meat with these extremely low FPE rifles
calibers only increased once folks started venturing into the Great Plains and Rocky Mountains due to the larger game.
my point is that if we are to be critical of the shitty Rouge it should not be over foot pounds produced but a few other factors
I can’t count the Deer, Moose and Bear I waxed as a youngster with the lowly .22LR, usually out of either a 4″ barreled Ruger RST4 semi pistol or an Armalite AR7.
my opinion is that excessive energy is only warranted to compensate for poor ability in the field and spare me the stupid bullshit about “humane” kills…get with the program folks, being shot with a low FPE round is a fuck of a lot more humane than starvation or being torn to pieces while still alive by feral dog packs, Coyotes or Timber Wolves
another point is that the Evalve system is NOT selenoid striker driven…it’s simply a valve that’s opened electronically…there is no hammer
Tremendous bit of innovation that Crosman bought rights to but failed in execution of it’s initial implimentation…typical
I do get a bit of a charge how some, {ahem} tend to attack me for being anti Crosman here given the universal loathing the Rouge recives regularly on TAG that as a rule I am not a participant in
why not more than a month back our esteemed WOK was slamming me for attacking the Holy Grail of all things Airgun…Crosman
pretty damn funny you ask me given the content of this thread 😆 😆 😆
tend to think this is how most airgunners picture wild game:
My exwife used to think I prayed in the shower, she kept hearing,”Oh my God.” coming from the shower.
RC
😀 😀 😀 😳 😯 😎 😮 😮 😀 😀 😀
Shaggy,
My exwife used to think I prayed in the shower, she kept hearing,”Oh my God.” coming from the shower.
RC
You and I and a lot of guys on this forum like RJPorter, could kill a deer with a #2 lead pencil if we got close enough and we do know how to get close enough, we have been doing it before we learned to jerk off..
But unfortunately most can’t.
And Crosman is selling that Rogue to a targeted market of smokeless powder hunters as a big game rifle, who are used to a lot more power and they are going to wound a lot of big game.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned shot placement, but how many of them are going to be capable of propper shot placement?
I hope that the next issue of Rogues are dependable accurate rifles, if they are it will be a difficult decision for me on whether to get a Rogue or a Conquest in 9mm.
But I won’t be shooting deer with either.
regards,
Roachcreek
I was playing pocket pool when I was 3 years old, can’t remember the first time, Still like to on accasions 😉 your right, most have the hurry up and shoot characters about them.. I also put that in my favorits about H.I.T.S. good to know…
Facinating site Marvin, I saved it inmy favorites.
RC
Charlie have you seen this . And yes I agree that they are out of line .Marvin
http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator
Wel Shaggy, here is the issue as I see it.
You and I and a lot of guys on this forum like RJPorter, could kill a deer with a #2 lead pencil if we got close enough and we do know how to get close enough, we have been doing it before we learned to jerk off..
But unfortunately most can’t.
And Crosman is selling that Rogue to a targeted market of smokeless powder hunters as a big game rifle, who are used to a lot more power and they are going to wound a lot of big game.
You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned shot placement, but how many of them are going to be capable of propper shot placement?
I hope that the next issue of Rogues are dependable accurate rifles, if they are it will be a difficult decision for me on whether to get a Rogue or a Conquest in 9mm.
But I won’t be shooting deer with either.
regards,
Roachcreek
I don’t know if your doing this, but many confuse the difference between a 38 Special and a 38 S&W, they are not the same.
The 38 S&W is legendary as being a poor killer on men after the advent of anitbiotics, and no this is not a joke, most of its victims died of infection before the advent of anitbiotics. Remember this cartridge has been around since the 1880’s.
It is a widely known fact in LE that it is one of the poorest man stoppers.
Altho it did have its most effective load in the Brittish servcie revolver but it used a 200 grain bullet, even at that it was still a poor man stopper.
Now most men when hit have “pussy factor” meaning,” oh my god I have been shot,” then they stop the fight. Deer don’t do this, they run like hell after you shoot them if the central nervous system has not been compromised.
Men and deer weigh roughly the same. They need the same amount of killing power.
Look at the bullet the fellow shot that animal with on his african hunt. It is a nosler round nose, and there is no expansion what so ever, it simply slipped thru the tissue and hit some blood vessels. If you know anything about bullet design and its effectiveness on game, you should know that unexpanding round nosed bullets are the porrest bullets you can use on game.
The 38 S&W is not what could in any sense of the word be considered a ethical or effective deer cartride.
Coyotes, raccons rabbits ect can be killed by this round, but it is simply unethical to use it on big game.
Deer are big game animals and are not 2×4’s, there is nothing resembling 2×4’s in the game fields, shooting a 2×4 and comparing it to a game animal proves absolutely nothing other than the experimentor is ignorant of ballistics and shooting game.
Shaggy, I suspect there are fewer than a half dozen men who have worked with this cartridge more than I have.
I shot the 38 S&W for roughly 45 years, I started at age 12 shooting a Iver Johnson chambered for that cartridge, I cast for it, I shot it in guns from the early 1880 S&W spur trigger guns thru the double action 1880 revolvers to the much stronger S&W Perfected model. I loaded black powder and hotter smokeless loads. I loaded the cartridge up until the guns failed in my hands to see what they could do.
I once killed a huge muled deer buck with a spur trigger S&W using a black powder load, by holding the muzzle against the rib cage as it trashed on the ground after being knocked down by my Sharps rifle. The slug cut the aorta and it bled out, but if I had not cut that aorta, on a deer that had not been knocked sensless by a 430 grain 45 slug, it woud have escaped to die a painful death.
I shot Jackrabbits, cotton tails, cats, porcupines and even tried to kill a cow we were butchering with one, the bullet bounced off it’s forehead and flew past my ear.
When we look for a comparitve cartridges to compare the ballistics of the Rogue to, which is something we should do with all big bore air rifles we wish to hunt with, for instance, my Ranger 45 is simply a hot loaded 45 LC using heavy bullets.
By doing this we can judge the effectiveness of that air rifle, not by shooting 2×4’s but by the track history these cartridges have had in the hunting fields
And for the Rogue it must be a 38 caliber, for that is what the bore is, 38 caliber. It is not as powerful as a 9mm for it does not have the velocity, it is not a 357 magnum as we all know, and it is not as powerful as a 38 Special, another artirdge I have shot for ever and by the thousands.
The closest cartridge to the Rogues power is the 38 S&W.
The Rogue should not be used on big game because that cartridge can only be described as anemic and was never used on big game because it was anemic and no state game commision condones the use of that cartridge on big game..
But Crosman pays for these High Fence big game hunts for advertising, to sell us a gun that they knew did not work, they knew it had accuracy problems and that they knew they could not make work in the form that they sold it to us. Think about that for a while Shaggy they sold us guns they knew would not work, that they could not fix unless they redsigned them and they continued to sell them and lie about how well they worked..
Now they have what is termed as being the Rogue2 and I sincerly hope it works, I hope it does not have the problems that the past Rogues have had.
Regards,
Roachcreek
I think this is the best explaination yet and best answer to my question and thank you for taking the time to write it, and not trying to be a idiot,, You done well!!! 😀 I saw a man get shot 5 times in the chest with a 38 special and drive himself to the hospital, I saw a Cop shoot a guy with a 38 and covered him for dead and he lived. And Ive seen Deer taken with a 38 hand gun years ago by a guy. And I have “Known ” deer to be taken by a 22 magnum, and I understand the Arrow Physics verses bullet physics. I have personally seen Huge hogs taken down with 55.5 Foot pounds of energy with a 22 short. We used to raise and kill them. Although the 22 short knocked them down we would get in the penn and stick them with a knife, but never the less the 55.5 FPDS took the hog down with a 25 grain Bullet. Hog Meat just aint right if it isnt Bled out, and a Hogs head is harder than a deer head. So why is it hard to believe that patiencs and the right shot cant do the same to a deer or anything else?
I know there are people with Buck Feaver that can’t hold still enought to get the right shot, but thats why people get hurt in the woods hunting,.One of my friends lost a Smith And Wesson 38 it was the breake down typeantique,, and teh Gun was found laying next to a dead man, who shot himself with it. Nope he didn’t die from Led Poison he died of the gunshot wound. Honestly and truly, none of the Physics explained makes sense! IMHO It boils down to shot placement,. I think If I’m correct the Native Amricans used Bows make of wood and a stick with a peace of flint on it for hunting,, they can still be found in the gardens around here to this day, along with the Ax type flint used to make a Tamahawk. You can see the flickering in the sun in a fresh plowed field, one of my old time friends used to go around and collect them, Now that does away with the razor sharp Theory because these things are dull as a butter knife. George Washington Wanted to fight the war of Independance with a Bow cause the Muskets was just not good enought to use and was not dependable and was not weather proof. Yet he was given the air rifle of Todays standard to a real gun to use, in stead of an AR-15, compairing apples to oranges by todays standards.
So an Indian in their field could load and shoot an arrow faster than we could load and shoot a gun, making way for the Modern(In their day) Gattling Gun. That gun by todays standard wont hold up against the Modern day 45 automatic, which is still by far the best man stopper ever built. Not to undermine the 44 magnum Pistol, that is supposed to kill a Polar Bear at 100 yards, compairing the weight and speed of that Bullet against what we are talking about right now, still says, a 308 or 357 Airgun “will” do what they say it will do, by compairson, and distance. now the Air gun wont kill as far as the 44 magnum, but TKO wise at 25 yards it is compatible “not” equal but Compatible to the same numbers. I won all of the Guns mentioned, I own over 100 guns from a 177 pellet to a 4570 Gvt, and every pistol from a 22 rim fire to a 500 magnum S&W..so the Physics and the numbers just don’t match up. I read an artical that said if you want an argument just try to explaine bullistics,, for it is all Theory, and none of it is provable accept the old Log trick, hang it shoot it with a bullet, see which moves it the fartherest and thats the old time real test. The only provable test that has merit. Thanks RC for your input, I really enjoyed reading it. Take it from me, I have experminted with it all, Ive even used a blow Gun, takes a lot of practise, and you aint going to kill anything any bigger than a chipmunk with it, But it works .. Good night you all 😉
I respectfully disagree, Jerry. Higher foot-pounds of energy transferred to a soft-tissue target causes significant damage (typically seen as “blood-shot” tissue around the wound channel); it is also necessary to allow deep or complete penetration. Any organs that are hit by such an expanding projectile are devastated, but shock & knock-down power also kill. A surgically-sharp broadhead arrow passing thru the lungs kills by hemmorage; a bullet passing through the lungs causes some bleeding, but the energy transfer as it passes-through imparts additional damage to the lung tissue. The shock damage is even greater should the projectile strike heavy bone or muscle. It’s a package deal; I’ll compromise on that.
koja,
I think you’re right about how a brodhead kills but wrong about bullets. FPE never killed anything, destroying organs or massive bllod loss kills.
OK, when I hit that deer with my tuck, the fpe might have played a role but I’m pretty sure the brain and every other organ was hurt pretty bad!
Shaggy,
I don’t know if your doing this, but many confuse the difference between a 38 Special and a 38 S&W, they are not the same.
The 38 S&W is legendary as being a poor killer on men after the advent of anitbiotics, and no this is not a joke, most of its victims died of infection before the advent of anitbiotics. Remember this cartridge has been around since the 1880’s.
It is a widely known fact in LE that it is one of the poorest man stoppers.
Altho it did have its most effective load in the Brittish servcie revolver but it used a 200 grain bullet, even at that it was still a poor man stopper.
Now most men when hit have “pussy factor” meaning,” oh my god I have been shot,” then they stop the fight. Deer don’t do this, they run like hell after you shoot them if the central nervous system has not been compromised.
Men and deer weigh roughly the same. They need the same amount of killing power.
Look at the bullet the fellow shot that animal with on his african hunt. It is a nosler round nose, and there is no expansion what so ever, it simply slipped thru the tissue and hit some blood vessels. If you know anything about bullet design and its effectiveness on game, you should know that unexpanding round nosed bullets are the porrest bullets you can use on game.
The 38 S&W is not what could in any sense of the word be considered a ethical or effective deer cartride.
Coyotes, raccons rabbits ect can be killed by this round, but it is simply unethical to use it on big game.
Deer are big game animals and are not 2×4’s, there is nothing resembling 2×4’s in the game fields, shooting a 2×4 and comparing it to a game animal proves absolutely nothing other than the experimentor is ignorant of ballistics and shooting game.
Shaggy, I suspect there are fewer than a half dozen men who have worked with this cartridge more than I have.
I shot the 38 S&W for roughly 45 years, I started at age 12 shooting a Iver Johnson chambered for that cartridge, I cast for it, I shot it in guns from the early 1880 S&W spur trigger guns thru the double action 1880 revolvers to the much stronger S&W Perfected model. I loaded black powder and hotter smokeless loads. I loaded the cartridge up until the guns failed in my hands to see what they could do.
I once killed a huge muled deer buck with a spur trigger S&W using a black powder load, by holding the muzzle against the rib cage as it trashed on the ground after being knocked down by my Sharps rifle. The slug cut the aorta and it bled out, but if I had not cut that aorta, on a deer that had not been knocked sensless by a 430 grain 45 slug, it woud have escaped to die a painful death.
I shot Jackrabbits, cotton tails, cats, porcupines and even tried to kill a cow we were butchering with one, the bullet bounced off it’s forehead and flew past my ear.
When we look for a comparitve cartridges to compare the ballistics of the Rogue to, which is something we should do with all big bore air rifles we wish to hunt with, for instance, my Ranger 45 is simply a hot loaded 45 LC using heavy bullets.
By doing this we can judge the effectiveness of that air rifle, not by shooting 2×4’s but by the track history these cartridges have had in the hunting fields
And for the Rogue it must be a 38 caliber, for that is what the bore is, 38 caliber. It is not as powerful as a 9mm for it does not have the velocity, it is not a 357 magnum as we all know, and it is not as powerful as a 38 Special, another artirdge I have shot for ever and by the thousands.
The closest cartridge to the Rogues power is the 38 S&W.
The Rogue should not be used on big game because that cartridge can only be described as anemic and was never used on big game because it was anemic and no state game commision condones the use of that cartridge on big game..
But Crosman pays for these High Fence big game hunts for advertising, to sell us a gun that they knew did not work, they knew it had accuracy problems and that they knew they could not make work in the form that they sold it to us. Think about that for a while Shaggy they sold us guns they knew would not work, that they could not fix unless they redsigned them and they continued to sell them and lie about how well they worked..
Now they have what is termed as being the Rogue2 and I sincerly hope it works, I hope it does not have the problems that the past Rogues have had.
Regards,
Roachcreek
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Bullshit…….. I ran to many ambulance calls in my life, I have been in the medical field since 1994.