Word is the new Crosman is a BigBore .357

The point is there are better tools. I stretched what I thought was the limit of equipment, I loved hunting with cast bullets, but in reality nothing kills as well as a high velocity expanding jacketed bullet, barring that you use the biggest bullet with the biggest mass. I experienced this, I witnessed this, I saw it in person.

Yes Steve killed a coyote with his 25 a flash shot he took in an enviroment he knew well, at a running coyote between two vehicles and as luck would have it his flash sholt hit the arota and it died. How many airgunners can take that shot, even Steve admits it was luck.

And that is the problem I have with air gun hunters shooting inadequate guns at large hard to kill animals, yes if drilled perfectly they will die, but this is not a perfect world.

But you evidently take everything you read and promote it for air gunning and hunting.

Which is the point I am making, things do not always go the way we want them to in the hunting fields, but you guy evidently have not spent enough time there to have had failures, and I have had failures, from not using enough gun or stretching the limits on human endurance and or equipment, if you had you would not make the statements you do.

And those failures hurt, it bothered me to wound a game animal and to lose it, I was damn good at what I did and I lost animals. Some animals I don’t really care about if the run off after being shot, unless I was shooting coyotes for the fur market, I could give a shit if they fell over when I shot them, most I did not even walk up to, same with rodents. Deer and Elk were different, I ate those.

This was my field, it was what I did for decades, not for a couple of weeks out of every year. If that hurts your feelings or you think it is a cheap shot, excuse me if I don’t come hold your hand. I am just telling you what I learned from experience, your telling me examples of a few sorted stories from few if any things you experienced or read.

I am just trying to give you the benefit of what I experienced so that you do not have those failures.

The reason most hunters do not use a naked bullet at subsonnic velocity is that technoledgy has proven that large heavy bullets kill better than skinny little slow ones, and that high velocity controlled expansion jacketed bullets kill better than even the large heavy ones.

I see nothing to dispute this based on my experience.

But again don’t listen to me Jerry, you know it all, you have read all these posts by would be hunters who are correct in the assuption that airguns can and do kill, but it is the delivery of that kill, and the margin that a bigger and faster slug gives you in an imperfect world.

Which is why I choose to try and kill my 51st elk with a 58 rather than a lighter caliber. Who are you to question that?

This is the last post for me in this thread.

Roachcreek

“But hey, don’t let experience prove you wrong, I mean shit, you sell bullets, so what would I know. Things are different in the hunting fields, but from what you write, evidentlyyou really wouldn’t know, animals move at the last second, they run thru the brush, you get excited, Jerry it is not paper your shooting.”

That’s a cheap shot RC. You know damn well I market the slugs for my son and he’ll cast .25s or .50s for you and it doesn’t matter if you’re a kid shooting paper or a retired master hunter shooting elk. I don’t make a fucking nickle off the God damn slugs and I don’t pretend to know every fucking thing about what can kill what but I have a decent BS detector and I know when someone is talking one step above all the experience they have to keep touting. You’ve told us all about shooting lord knows how many animals with .22s and now even .38s but nobody but you should ever consider doing it. Really, you can do it over and over but it would be inhumane for anyone else to even consider it? It’s not me RC, there are many folks here and on a couple other sites that have hunted and killed deer and yotes and even bigger game with airguns and posted the results over and over. You keep rolling around to how a .308 airgun compares to a small powder burner and they keep posting kills. Live and learn dude!

RC,

I appreciate the conversational tone and I think we’re about to reach an understanding of what our actual positions are. We could probably do that in about 5 minutes face to face but this is the internet and printed word so special consideration must be made for the limits of text. I hope you don’t mind if I make some sellective quotes to help the process…

“The year that picture was taken, I won the Oregon Combat Rifle championship. So oddly enough, I do know how to shoot.” I have no doubt that you can shoot and that you can shoot when it matters, not just paper. In fact, I’m assuming two things: 1. Had you tried, you could have learned an appropraite airgun (back in the day) and shot a bunch of those same yotes with air, 2. You’re not the only one who can shoot, somebody not horrible came in second to you and somebody won the next year and there are a bunch of guys reading this that can shoot. Some have faced down the excitement of incoming game and some the terror of incoming fire and some are just cool cats, good shooting did not begin or end with any one guy…

“Powder burners tell us what will work and what will not work”
I think that statement is a bit misguided at best. It also smacks of the mentality airgunners have to deal with all the time. Some guy who has a pb thinks he knows more about shooting and is more lethal because he shoots a more powerful gun or a BATF regulated gun. Energy comparisons are simple, free and worth every penny… Go shoot a deer with a 100fpe .22 at point blank range where you can’t miss the heart, it will be dead toot fast. Take a .32 airgun making 100 fpe and do the same damn shot, that deer will be dead just as fast (yes, I have photo evidence to back up this point). There is nothing in the pb shooters background to support or refute the above other than the shots the guy might have missed and perception based on INEXPERIENCE. Yeah, the guy that holds the records for most gerbils shot with a .15 pb might have no salient experience whatsoever or even a basis for comparison to a guy hunting gerbils with a .26 airgun. Yet, it is possible to take the 38 fpe the .15 pb makes and compare it to the 26.2 fpe the .26 airgun makes and decide that the ag is clearly inferior… BTW, I have a Tercel that my kids have now used a couple times to impart several thousands of fpe on deer and yet the deer can’t be found!

“I am not saying it can’t be done, we know better than that, but let me say this, coyote calling is one of the most exciting games in town, watching a dog come in from 4 or 5 hundred yards away, can unnerve just about anyone because it is so exciting, and if it is not exciting then why do it.”
I agree. But, if your suggesting that the guy who might get unnerved needs a bigger gun to compensate for his nerves…you are then agreeing with me that the shooter is the primary factor and also setting yourself up for the accusation that your recommendations are based on a belief that nobody will ever match your nerve and skill.

“However unless you have been there and done it day, in and day out, rain or shine, your really just guessing.”
Exactly, you’ve done it with a more than adequate pb but you have little experience with airgun hunting. Fact is, there are a number of folks that have done a lot of airgun hunting and we might just be wise to listen to their counsel instead of telling them about fpe comparisons and trying to deride their experience.

“Were still talking lead 19th century handgun ballistics here, and yes, I have killed a lot of game with those guns, from 38 S&W to 44 Russian, 45 S&W and 45 Colt in both rifle and handgun and of course bigger stuff still. I used black powder on half of it when I did it, and it makes no differnce whether it is air or powder, a naked lead bullet going subsonnic is not nearly as good as a killer as a jacketed one going supersonnic.”
That’s a simplistic comparison and a little self aggrandizing if you’ll permit my saying so. It sounds like it’s OK for you to use weak ass guns but the rest of us are too darn unskilled to handle it thus we need to heed your advice to get huge firepower to compensate for our lack of skill. Yeah, a supersonic jacketed .308 doing 4000fps is more deadly than a 750fps .25…unless both pass through the heart or brain of a yote, in which case they are exatly equal in effectiveness. In fact, they would both be exactly as deadly as a thermonuclear bomb, a .44 magnum, or a great flood as far as that yote goes!

“It my opinion based on physics and real life experience gained from shooting something other than 2×4’s.”
I agree. You have a great deal of experience but you discount any experience other than your own. You keep refering to things like shooting 2x4s when there is tons of data available about actual game being taken with airguns! Honestly, your “physics” basis is simplistic fpe comparisons that I think I’ve at least reduced the confidence in (regarding importance, not accuracy of the numbers). There is a whole lot of experience available to you that you have and continue to discount. Post after post with pictures of dead animals that should have run off laughing had they known what shot them!

You have apparently just ordered a .58 and you’ve indicated that that’s a comfortable caliber for deer. Well, depending on what you bought, you might have gone and bought a buffalo gun to hunt deer. Having a little more respect for the opinions of those that actually have experience using airguns to hunt might have saved you cash and led you to a better gun for your purpose…unless you plan on hunting bison too….

Jerry,

The year that picture was taken, I won the Oregon Combat Rifle championship. So oddly enough, I do know how to shoot. I took two guns to each stand, the shotgun for close in work, and a flat topped AR, that I had cut down, it would be 15 years before flatops were available, it was what I used for the long stuff, but sometimes it was a single shot 223 Ruger #3. Mostly I used Corbin 223 bullts made from rimfire empties.

I shot 38’s by the thousand, got them for free. I have shot just about everything with a 38.

I did not shoot them often with a 38, because if they got away, I lost a valuable pelt.

Powder burners tell us what will work and what will not work, or importantly work well. The reason is most of the world is shooting game with them and very few are shooting coyote size animals and larger with air rifles.

I am not saying it can’t be done, we know better than that, but let me say this, coyote calling is one of the most exciting games in town, watching a dog come in from 4 or 5 hundred yards away, can unnerve just about anyone because it is so exciting, and if it is not exciting then why do it.

Problem is excitement makes you shoot a little wider than you do from a bench, or what you do at a chuck or a squirrel. Coyotes are not stupid, the scenery changes from eyeballs to assholes in a fraction of a second. It is easy to shoot small groups from a bench and think you can instantly apply that to real world hunting experiences.

However unless you have been there and done it day, in and day out, rain or shine, your really just guessing.

The old hunters I used to know had a saying, “Talk is cheap, where are your gut piles friend?”

The full picture on top has 55 coyotes, and three bobcats, that was only three months worth.

Were still talking lead 19th century handgun ballistics here, and yes, I have killed a lot of game with those guns, from 38 S&W to 44 Russian, 45 S&W and 45 Colt in both rifle and handgun and of course bigger stuff still. I used black powder on half of it when I did it, and it makes no differnce whether it is air or powder, a naked lead bullet going subsonnic is not nearly as good as a killer as a jacketed one going supersonnic.

It my opinion based on physics and real life experience gained from shooting something other than 2×4’s.

But your mileage and imagination may vary.

Regards,

Roachcreek

Walter,

The cold and harsh conditions age you fast, you can see by the pictures.

The bike was a 125 CC, I think it was a Yamaha.

Roachcreek

RC,

Me’thinks thou dost protest too much!

What exactly does shooting a million yotes with a big ass gun teach you about terminal ballistics of some other gun? Had you shot and had decent hits on a bunch of yotes with a .38 and found that was just a dumb thing to try, well that would be usefull information. But, you didn’t shoot those yotes with a .38 because there was not chance of getting a good hit unless the dog was in a cage. My point is that you are over-reaching on the lessons your experience taught you. Had your only gun been a .460 Weatherby magnum, would that be near the bottom of required power?

If you approach things with a more objective attitude, I expect you’ll come to some different conclusions and be able to take in and evaluate some experience not your own. What has been demonstrated over and over again is that accurate and powerful airguns in the .30 caliber range can put mild pistol energy levels into the kill zones of medium game consistent with the skill of the shooter. That’s more than enough to kill these animals humanely and effectively. Because, energy does not kill, organ destruction and blood loss kills. That .38 puts out more than enough energy to create a fatal wound channel in a yote, if you could hit it. With an air rifle in the .30 range and with decent muzzle energy, you can make that hit.

It makes no sense to compare a .38 snub nose to the Rogue and suggest that the similar energy level is the key number.

I appreciate your concern for humane kills but the biggest limiting factor there is the shooter, not the gun.

Take your bullet weight on that Corsair or DAQ or any 308 air rifle, and your velocity, and compare it to a PB, what caliber would that be?

Not even 38 special, closer to 38 S&W. Now there is a varmit round. 😆

I can kill a coyote with a #2 lead pencil under the right conditions, does not mean it is coyote medicine.

Roachcreek