Making the .25 Edgun quiet, easily and inexpensively…
The key to the Edgun .25 making less noise is reducing the air pressure at the muzzle. There are a few ways to do this without engaging in exotic baffle designs, or spending money on an aftermarket shroud or moderator.
Here’s how it’s done:
The first step is to remove both the baffle cover, which is unscrewed counter clockwise, by hand, then removing the bottom shroud by removing the barrel bushing/vent nut. Then you can easily enlarge the existing vent holes at the rear of the Edgun shroud with a variable speed hand drill. I made my lower shroud vent holes 2.0mm in diameter:
You can go larger if you wish. If you go too large and begin to hear air “whoosh” out of the vent holes when firing, just wrap some felt around the inside of the shroud, behind the vent holes, to slow the air down. You can touch them up with the tip of a permanent ink black felt tip Sharpie. This is how they look when done, but before the Sharpie touchup:
The next step is to increase the air flow from the front of the Edgun to the rear of the shroud. Now on the R3 this is a bit more complicated because the shroud comes in two parts, so I will concentrate on the R3. Unscrew the top shroud, baffle cover, taking care to remove it easily because the O-ring can be damaged on the threads. Be sure to put silicone grease that O-ring before putting it back on. Note the bottom shroud, and barrel, are held in place by a 19mm nut with vent holes in it. It unscrews easily, counter-clockwise, with a common metric wrench:
After it is taken off, you then enlarge the holes in the nut with a variable speed drill. I went 2.5mm, you may choose to go smaller, but not much larger, as the hole diameter affects the strength of the nut.
After this is done, you simply replace the bottom shroud, then the barrel bushing, being certain that the bottom of the shroud is properly placed OVER the rim of the permanent cone shaped breech attachment. If you ignore this step, you will bend the bottom of the shroud when you tighten the nut…note the bottom of the shroud sitting flush against the cone shaped breech attachment in this picture. The hidden rim inside the shroud is about 1/8″ or so tall, but it must have the shroud placed evenly over it before tightening the nut. When you lift up and remove the bottom shroud, you will easily spot it, as the cone shaped breech attachment remains in place:
Finally, there has been much discussion regarding how much torque must be used to tighten the nut that holds the barrel and bottom shroud in place. This is not a difficult process. First you obtain a Russian Torque Wrench…see below picture:
Placing the 19mm wrench in this handy grasping tool, you tighten the nut to where it is snug against the shroud, then you go roughly 1/2 turn further. That’s all it takes. Remember, this is thin and fairly soft aluminum and will strip threads or bend rather easily. AND…if you have placed the bottom of the barrel shroud over the lip of the cone shaped breech attachment, you will not have bent, or dented, the bottom of the shroud.
Replacing the top shroud (baffle cover) is easily done, just be careful sliding the cover over the O-ring using a light downward pressure and clockwise screwing motion until it gets past the threads on the cover. Snug it up hand tight, no more.
That’s it! You can expect at least a 50% reduction in muzzle blast, which on the Long Edgun makes the hammer slap the loudest noise emitted when shooting the gun. It costs nothing, takes about 1/2 hour, a couple of metric bits, and a variable speed hand drill. Take your time. The existing holes will guide the bit if you proceed slowly, especially when starting the new hole.
Now, for that hammer slap…I’m still working on that one.
Regards,
Kindly ‘Ol Uncle H 😯 😯 t
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Here are some measurements I took of my R3 without the shroud. I have the R3 with the steel breech. The model before the Ed changed to aluminum breeches. I also took a pic of the bushing that sits against the scope tower/breech spacer. I also noticed that the barrel is wobbly but does indeed free float inside the scope tower/breech spacer. I’m going to test the aluminum shroud Hoot tested. I want to get first hand experience. I post the results as soon as possible. I will compare the sound to my Cricket with 16 in carbon fiber shroud. It is shooting at 30 ft lbs right now. This is my benchmark. I don’t have a decibel meter so I will not have numbers to share, just a comparison between the Cricket and Edgun. I really like the carbon fiber shroud with additional LDC. I looks so dam cool.
Barrel Diameter
To all who are following the progress of this thread there is a post on the YELLOW that yo may find interesting:
Regards, Mike
This has been a very educational thread.
At what distance did you shoot those groups?
Gabe
My laser measured exactly 30 yards. (Synopsys…that’s 90 feet!!!)
I don’t shoot 100 yards. I can’t even see 100 yards. With a 12X scope I might be able to see half way…perhaps, not sure. I’m definitely not the “go to” guy for accuracy testing beyond 100 feet.
Did you adjust the scope between any of the three groups for each different shroud? Only when I first put the shroud on. Once on, it seemed to stay on target.
Old Goat made some interesting remarks about the aluminum slide-on shroud working on the R2.5 models. I remember that barrel attachment system. I’m kind of at a loss at the current barrel attachment method. I think the old one was just fine.
I really feel for you shooting in the heat like that. I am shooting sparrows from an air conditioned bedroom this afternoon with the new cool trigger on my Stubby w/ the 177 barrel and even having the slider door 2″ open throws a discomforting blast of warm air on your face. I bet the temp rises to 74-75 degrees. I find myself sipping a frozen lemonade more frequently in such harsh conditions. Luckily, I can see a 50″ HD TV off to the right from the shooting bench and watch cooler climates in between shots. 😳 The sparrows hitting my feeders sure don’t mind the heat.
Did you adjust the scope between any of the three groups for each different shroud?
Shoot off that picnic bench with some bags. 😉
I’ll parrot Gabe’s question, what distance?
Ed tests these 25cal Matadors at 100-150 yards…
Horace the factory part has a rubber O-ring, the part I used is machined to be a snug fit on the barrel and a snug fit in the front of the scope support, it actually allows less barrel movement than the factory part, Neil.
Once again, thank you Hoot for all your hard work!!
This has been a very educational thread.
At what distance did you shoot those groups?
Gabe
By the way Horace and anyone else who might not be aware of this, the internals on a shroud or LDC alone can cause a change in POI, as long as it is close enough to sight in the scope and get on center and groups are tight there is nothing wrong with the scope or shroud. The way they are made they will cause turbulence inside the tube around the pellet and this can change the POI, I do not have a CNC machine, my internals are all made and drilled by hand so they are not perfectly made, so there is always a possibility of a disruptive turbulence inside the tube, many times it does not effect POI but there is always that possibility so I am not thrown off by the change in POI as long as you get tight groups there is nothing wrong with the shroud. By the way the only way to test one shroud against another is to shoot the gun without anything attached to it, then attach each shroud and see how it holds center. If the gun could be fired without Eds shroud and then with his shroud you might also find a change in POI, but because of the way his gun is put together and the claims of tension needed this test would not be productive, but that is how I test all my LDC’s at home. I sight in the gun with nothing attached and then attach an LDC to see if there is any change in POI, most of the time there is none, but I have experienced a change of a few inches at 20 yards on the odd one which would be more at longer distances. Neil.
Horace as I said to you I suspect the clipping is my fault, I made them all to fit a .22 caliber as that was how the gun was marked, I had no idea Ed marked his 25 caliber guns with .22. Once these are put together center boring them is not accurate with carbon fiber as it does not have fine tolerances and the OD varies, If you send them back to me I can open them up enough to make sure they do not clip and you can test them again. From what I have seen there seems to be accuracy there and after opening up the holes slightly I am sure the sound will change so little you will not hear any difference. I am not suggesting anyone uses the permanent Loctite on their threads, there is some available that does not harden and can be easily removed but is enough to stop threads from coming loose. There is nothing wrong with your hearing my friend, both of the shrouds were about as loud as my .22 mrod so they were both substantially quieter than the modified shroud you sent me. I am looking forward to further results, shoot some more pellets through them, it is always possible there is a slight burr on a baffle, remember these were put together a lot faster than I am used to making them because of my busy schedule and wanted to find out if making them was feasible,thanks for the testing Horace, good job my friend, Neil.
I think we need a baseline for the target shooting. Your gun with the original setup. You should move up here to Missouri. We are 3 degrees cooler and 2% less humidity. 🙂
First, here’s my setup for the shoot. Not a bench rest, but better than nothing. Conditions are hotter than hillbilly hell, 95 degrees, 90% humidity, no wind.
There’s my targets, barely visible by the naked eye, tacked to a 2 X 12 leaning on a tree.
Using a UTG 3 X 12 = 42mm scope, on 12X, here are the best 3 shot groups, out of five attempts, with the aluminum shroud, slide-on, no barrel pre-tension:
Here are the best 3 shot groups, out of five attempts, with the carbon fiber shroud alone, no ldc on the end:
Note: there will be no test results with the carbon fiber attached on the carbon fiber shroud, as it was clipping pellets. Neil had made these for .22 caliber originally, and was concerned that they may need to be opened up a bit. Both shrouds were fine, but the LDC baffles were just a tad small. Sorry about that….
In this model of R3 .25 Long, there is a bushing that slides down the barrel and into the end of the breech/scope tower:
That piece fits into a recessed opening in the breech and the shroud is centered on the lip it provides:
As seen in this picture, the aluminum shroud does NOT use that bushing, but slides into the breech opening and centers itself with the lip Neil put on it. Absent is the support that the OEM bushing added to the barrel. (Correction: Neil’s shroud’s breech end fits tightly around the barrel and thus offers support. My mistake!) It has an O-ring on the inside, hugs the barrel tightly, fits into the recessed breech firmly, and does provide additional barrel support:
The aluminum shroud, about an inch longer than the OEM shroud, looks good on the Edgun, and performs well:
NOW…my honest opinion. The gun shoots well with both shrouds. However, I noted I had to re-center my scope when I changed shrouds. It would be off several inches from the prior shroud, so the barrel moves to a different position, as it relates to the scope, on the different shrouds.
After I had each shroud securely on, I pounded the gun with my hand, turned it upside down, and around, to see if any change took place…none did! The barrel didn’t seem to “wobble”, but that doesn’t mean it won’t eventually come unscrewed.
Personally, for safety sake, I’d ask Neil to install the mid-point nut in the shroud, so you could screw the barrel down tight. The carbon fiber shroud has that feature. Is it enough pressure to keep the barrel from coming unscrewed? Who knows? Neil’s loc-tite idea is certainly worth considering whether you forego the pre-tension nut, or have one put in. We never could get an answer about whether there was a specific torque number when tightening the baffle nut on the OEM shroud.
I also want to remind you guys that I’m 70 years old, and what is “quiet” to me, may blow your ears off! We need a second opinion on sound reduction.
My accuracy is not your accuracy. My trigger is not working properly. I can’t seem to get a first stage of any length, and the second stage is either hard, or so light it’s dangerous. Accordingly, I suggest we might have a second opinion on the NC shrouds effect on accuracy as well. My groups weren’t bad…but they weren’t consistent. I want to be certain someone else can repeat, or improve, on my results. I had a wobbly stand, a hard trigger, an inexpensive scope, and bad eyes. It would be good to have a second try with someone better equipped and qualified to test this.
I’ll speak to Neil about this. This is his equipment, so if anyone is interested in running more conclusive tests on these two shrouds, contact Neil and ask if he is interested in a second opinion. That will be my suggestion to him.
This is WAY off the original intent of this thread, but it has gotten interesting. That “floating barrel” issue never found consensus among the forum members, so use your best judgement and be safe.
Regards,
H 😯 😯 t
By the way if the only reason there is tension on the barrel is to stop it coming loose in the threads surely a touch of Loctite on the threads would be worth it to be able to use the gun with a shroud that makes it a lot quieter, small trade off in my books!
I do not believe what you are saying has any bearing on the accuracy, we will only know when Horace has tested the gun with the shrouds on it, Neil.
Synopsys, you can put a longer barrel on your R3 177. I put a 26” long Hart .257” barrel to my R3 25 long. I had Hart turn my barrel down to .460”, so it would slide thru the scope rail mounts, had both ends of the barrel threaded 12 mm X 1.25 mm pitch and bought a 3’ long piece of aluminum tubing from McMaster-Carr.
They offer a lot of different ID and OD tubing and the tube that I ordered had an ID that was just slightly larger than the stock Matador rear shroud tube. I just had to cut the tube longer than the stock rear shroud tube to make up for the difference in barrel lengths. The baffle nut still tightened down and still puts the barrel in tension.
Hoot, Neil and others; I guess that I am a little slow here. You guys are talking about the rear of the R3’s barrel screwing into the front breech block and then being secured by 2 set screws. I have 3 R3s and none of them have 2 set screws securing the barrel. I have no clue as to what the hell you guys are talking about!
On my R3s, if the barrel is not put under tension, there is nothing to keep the barrel from unscrewing. It probably would take a lot of shots before the barrel went flying but, unless you constantly retightened it and/or used LocTite, the barrel would come loose.
On the R2.5s, and the Cricket, the scope rail, barrel and air tube assembly clamps down on the barrel and air tube. That assembly holds the barrel in place and also locks down the scope rail thereby not allowing any lateral movement of the scope rail.
On the R3, the barrel is screwed into the front breech block, the air tube/scope tower slides over the barrel and air tube, the rear shroud barrel bushing locates into the front of the “scope tower”. That bushing centers the barrel in the scope tower as the scope tower has a larger ID than the barrel’s OD. The rear shroud tube then slides on, there is a collar that goes on next and then the baffle nut is screwed on and tightened. On the R3s, the scope tower is not clamped to the air tube and barrel; it is located and held in position by the torque of the baffle nut. Unless I am missing something, without the tension locking the scope tower in position, the scope tower will be free to move side to side and it will lead to a wildly changing POI shift every time the gun is bumped.
I am a clumsy oaf and my Matadors get bumped a lot.
Ed designed the R3 this way as he felt that the R2.5’s air tube/barrel mount/scope rail setup could allow for a POI shift due to the difference in air tube pressure and subsequent difference in air tube OD.
Neil, I know that a lot of guns have free floating barrels but, they also have a means of locking the barrel to the breech that keeps it locked into position. My FX guns have free floating barrels, they also have 3 set screws that clamp the barrel down into the breech block and hold it securely. Again, unless I am missing something, your setup will allow lateral movement of the scope tower as there is now no means of locking it in place.
HOOT: take your Matador and sight it in on something that is 50-100 yards away. Hold the gun as steady as you can, a gun vice would be ideal, look thru the scope and see if you can get a POI by pushing the scope side to side.
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Hi Gabe…
Your barrel diameter is identical to mine. The one piece will fit. The “centering baffle” is 8.5″ up from the shroud bottom (there is no securing nut installed on this prototype model) so your barrel will fit nicely, and still grub screw tightly at the base. You can remove, or not remove, that adapter that fits between the breech and the shroud. Neil made it to be used without the adapter, but since the NC secures via grub screw against the barrel, it’s up to you whether to remove it or not. Personally, for looks, I’d take it off, but if it does not come off easily, at least you have a choice.
Out today via 3 day Priority. Sorry for the delay…things got hectic around here this week.
UPDATE: Scheduled to arrive this Saturday, 8/31/13, via USPS.
H 😯 😯 t