Benjamin Rogue Bullshit detector ringing!
Does anyone here have a Rogue? Please don’t be bashful, I’m not trying to belittle anyone or call them out for anything. I just want to get some actual information from someone who bought a Rogue retail and hopefully can shoot worth a damn!
As far as I can tell, Crosman (via Chip) has backed off on initial performance claims (though in a mealy mouthed way) and are now all about versatility.
Crosman appears (to me) to have delighted in all the pre-release hype on the airgun forums but is now claiming the lack of any positive reports via airgun forums to be because they market the gun to PB guys.
There are claims that hundreds of guns have been sold and yet the buyers are strangely silent. Oh yeah, the PB guys that bought this gun would never think to ask airgunners about all that airgun stuff like tanks, fills per tank, where to get fills, best prices, best gear etc… no they get all that info from Crosman… a company with one big bore to it’s credit. Right.
I was a defender of Crosman when they announced the Rogue and still appreciate the guts to move into a new market with new technology. In fact, I’d be proud of a company that did that and failed on the first attempt! Taking a risk and losing reveals a far stronger character and work ethic than playing it safe and having mediocre success.
But now, I smell BS and I hate that! I’m not saying that new tech is suddenly bad or even that the Rogue is a bad gun, I’m saying that Crosman appears to have let bogus initial claims stand despite knowing the actual product didn’t deliver per hype. The so called “actual” performance is not well defined but doesn’t appear all that bad (energy numbers only), but it’s not close to original hype.
Way back when, it was claimed that the gun would get 20 shots at 150 FPE and 4 shots at 250 FPE. Yeah, now the gun gets 21 shots at 133 FPE (not badf at all) and 3 shots at 195 FPE. The 21 at 133 doesn’t fall that far short but 3 at 195 is a damn far cry from 4 at 250! The latest explanation from Chip (Crosman’s rep) is not satisfactory. He claims that the initial claims were based on different weight bullets. Right, a gun that shoots 175gr bullets at 250 for 4 shots can only manage 195 with 170gr bullets for 3 shots… I might have been born on a rainy night but it wasn’t last night! Shit, I’ve got more big bores downstairs than Crosman has even seriously considered but they are going to tell me (and you) what’s what?
I’m also curious about Crosman’s claim via Chip that this gun is intended to bring hunters to airguns vice airgunners to hunting. Sounds like a BS strategy to me. You can’t get a airgunner to like the gun but maybe a guy who knows no better will? Let me get this straight, sell a gun that needs air tanks and fittings and fill sources etc to a PB guy and ignore the guys that already have all the gear to support the gun? Yeah, ignore the guys that already have all the gear and are used to the hassles that airguns bring but focus on PB guys that can buy super consistent ammo from big guys or custom reloaders? Got it. It’s a good thing the Rogue only costs double what a match grade varmint rifle with a tax stamp for a silencer would cost!
OK, maybe I’m totally f’d up here, it’s happened before! So, does anyone have a link to a PB site where the Rogue is reviewed by an actual customer? Has anyone in Crosman’s self declared target market actually posted any results? Really, after hundreds of sales to these hunters that routinely post on topics like head space measurements, best powder loads, best powder types, effects of temperature on powders, bullet designs, and every other esoteric thing you can imagine about shooting, shouldn’t there be a few easily found reviews?
BTW, I did notice that Jim (echochap) has a wonderful specimen that his buddy can shoot little groups with off-hand. Yeah, my BS detector has not been silenced! This is where I gather some hate mail… Jim has a habit of going quiet on guns that suck. He also has a habit of ignoring great guns that don’t pay his way. If he ever manages to “find the time” to gather actual numbers on the Rogue, they will probably be reported accurately. However, if the numbers and accuracy are crap, I doubt we’ll ever know that he found the time…
So, I’m looking for retail customers that Crosman was unaware of to relay actual results! Has anyone besides the Crosman team shot anything with a Rogue?
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The “false recollection statement” he made on that GTA thread is just hilarious…..all anyone has to do is go to page 1 of the exact same thread he said that in, to see that he is the one with the false recollection!
I guess the 300yard shooting using the Rogue will be an “Exhibition”, seeing as the Rogue does not meet the weight requirement to be eligible for competition? There is a ten pound weight limit which includes ALL attached accessories.
Someone just posted a shot string for a SamYang DC that has a 16fps spread for 7 shots shooting RB 634-650fps.
Right now, I’d have greater faith in just about any BB than the Rogue.
I’ve been trying to find those happy hunters but…
Over on the adventure site I also posted the big hype from the Crosman CEO and assorted strap-hangers in the press release they sent. Here’s the link to the press release: http://flaguns.com/showthread.php?12061-Crosman-Introduces-The-Benjamin-Rogue-.357-Big-Bore-ePCP-Air-Rifle
I guess I wouldn’t be so annoyed by the failure of the Rogue to live up to the hype if it weren’t for Chip mentioning “flawed recollections” or being so arrogant about the gun being made for PB shooters. The arrogance of suggesting that getting PB hunters into airguns is so important that an airgun company with zero prior experience in big bores should take it on while ignoring airgun shooters is remarkable!
Speaking of failing to meet the hype, here’s some examples:
“accuracy and lethality out to 100 yards,” says Shockey. — so far, not a decent 100 yard group to be seen and nothing close to 100 yards taken.
“Ken D’Arcy, Crosman President and CEO, said that the pioneering technologies in this air rifle will “combine to change the course and perception of airgun hunting in the same way Samuel Colt changed shooting with the first repeater.” — LOL!
“No other airgun provides as many as 20 shots per fill and shoots at a consistent rate of 150 foot pounds of energy, and certainly not at this price range,” — Not met and closest setting of marginal value. According to Chip the gun can get 21 shots at 133 FPE using 170gr bullets which translates to 594 fps. What do you hunt with that? Using a 145gr bullet, 16 shots at 132 FPE / 640 fps are possible. I suppose that’s good enough for hogs at close range but it doesn’t seem like much of a step from a hotrodded Condor shooting 7 or 9 ring slugs! “Price range” – yup, nobody else makes a gun that costs 3 times what a 909 does and performs worse…
“The Rogue’s velocity ranges from 700 to 1000 feet per second with knock-down power from 100 foot pounds of energy (fpe) to an astounding 250 fpe.” — Not quite! According to Chip’s figures the velocity ranges from 594 to 814fps. It’s energy ranges from 80 to 195 FPE. Oh, the high of 814fps is using 100gr bullets for 147 FPE and no, you don’t get 20 shots, you get 6.
“It solves the problem other big bore PCP guns have of decreasing shot count and reduced knockdown power as the psi decreases. Unlike our more expensive competition, the Benjamin Rogue .357 continues to deliver powerful shots even with pressure as low as 1000 psi.” — None of Chip’s numbers show air useage down to 1000psi… another faulty recollection? Exactly what more expensive competition does the Rogue outperform?
“The most exceptional aspect of the Rogue .357 is its variability. No other airgun lets you choose what kind of game you want to hunt, in one package with only a few easy adjustments,” — Really, adjustable power and different bullets are new?
“There is enough power in this air rifle to take a boar-sized animal and, while I like airgun hunting for the challenge of close range pursuit, having one gun that offers both short and long range options is a hunter’s dream,” says Shockey. “The Rogue brings airgun hunting beyond pest control and into trophy hunting territory.” — Still waiting on the trophies! This whole statement is just drivel, any PB guy ever pass up the shot when his trophy appeared at closer range and his power was too high? Didn’t want to blow up the trophy squirrel?
“Benjamin has introduced three new .357 bullets designed for the Rogue rifle. The Benjamin eXTREME Bullet by Nosler® features Nosler’s famous Ballistic Tip® technology. Weighing in at 145 grains, it is a versatile bullet with “superb hunting accuracy and deep penetration,” according to President, Bob Nosler. There are also two new .357 Benjamin Pursuit bullets for use with the Rogue rifle, the Pursuit Hollow Point at 90 grains and the Pursuit Round Nose at 175 grains. Both are softer than traditional lead bullets and form effectively to the barrel of the rifle, due to their stepped band design.” — Still looking for that superb hunting accuracy! Oh, is hunting accuracy different from plain accuracy? Maybe so, what with the posted results of the Nosler not looking like anything I ever considered “accurate!”
I saw on the Yellow that Echochap is taking a Rogue to LASSO and so is another Crosman guy. Echochap said he’d be posting on his set-up work. That will be interesting to follow. I’ll be very curious to see if he shoots Noslers using factory settings for the 300 yard targets.
Seems low for 4500 psi. Maybe because 24″ barrel. I guess I’m doing something right. I can get 858 fps with 171 gr on 3300 psi in .308. I have a 4500 psi tank and need to make an adapter so I can try higher psi.
Recently xp-airguns started testing a .357 for future production. The last I heard was a 24″ barrel shooting 4500 psi on high power with a 170 grain went 875+ fps. And a 201 grain went 840+ fps. They are sending the prototype out for a distance test in the field by an individual shooter. Those results will be interesting to see.
They considering using a new barrel design that will allow use of .38 Special lead (.358), along with .357. They’ve got a poll going on Facebook about it.
No it’s not a repeater, it’s a bolt action, like their other rifles. But 300+ fpe is a lot more power than most other .357’s I’ve seen.
I got into it with Chip on the Adventures forum, Jerry came in and posted also. I told Chip I just did not buy his stories about the PB shooters flocking to the Rogue.
Jerry said he could not find PB shooters in forums bragging about their Rogues.
Bottom line I think CHip is just circling the drain until the Rogue shit hits the bean counter fan.
Regards,
Roachcreek
Jerry,I posted that on the Marauder barrel topic and somehow it ended up here too,sorry :?OG, when SP said he didn`t chrony any of his guns, I was a bit surprised.I`m glad he likes it but the few other owners are having cycling problems,Time will tell.later,mark
Just me I guess. I check out Airgun Advice and I didn’t like the way that he dumped on Mamcrackin when he posted there about his Matadors. It seemed to me that he was an Edgun hater without ever actually having seen one.
Since then; I have been taking everything that he posts with at least a “few” grains of salt!
He is currently all warm and gushy about the Evanix Speed and Max. They might be great guns, I just need somebody else to post their experiences with them.
I think that he has his personal favorite airguns and that he dumps on anyone that doesn’t like the same guns that he likes.
HEY WAIT! 😯
Harsh. What makes you say that?
Daystate is bringing out a new .303 cal Wolverine that, they claim, gets 25 shots at “well over”100 fpe using a 47 grain “pellet”. The projected cost is $2500. They plan on offering it in 25 cal also. It is featured around 50 seconds into the video.
WARNING! SP posted the vid and I think that he is right up there with eurochap!
JSB is supposedly making the 47 gn pellets.
I gave it a week or two before responding to Chip on the Rogue thread over at the GTA, to see what the results were of my post on PredatorMasters asking who all was shooting bigbore airguns. I even bumped-up the PM post to be sure people saw it. A couple of Korean gun enthusiasts responded and that was it.
So I just tonight responded to Chip’s claims of the 600fps Rogue being such a big breakthru in the BigBore Gate at the GTA.
Carry on. 😆 😆
sorry to bore you…
:horse:
Thanks for the comment killer. I don’t hang out at the PB forums but I did some web searches and just couldn’t find any traffic. That could be because I didn’t search well, so, it’s good to hear from a PB guy that they haven’t seen much. The additional perspective is valuable as well.
I expect, if Crosman had made a gun the airgunners loved, PB guys might see an advantage. I don’t see PB guys going for an airgun that airgunners think is crap.
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The Rogue…..lol! That gun has SOOOO disappeared. We are the only ones talking about it..
I actually wonder if the Green Mountain barrel is choked? Does anyone know? Might explain a few accuracy issues.