EDgun Matador, caliber .30, second generation.
Dear friends,
Some of you has problems with the valves on these guns. I have to confess that is my fault. The point is that I made heavier hammer in order to get more power, but left the valve rod the same diameter, 2 mm. So, when the hammer impact the valve, its inertion doesn’t allow the valve to move properly “forward and back” and the rod has too strong force and due to that force can curve.
Once again, that is my fault as the designer and engeneer of this gun. Sorry for that. I’ve ordered new 3 mm. hardened, polished rods (to tell you truth that is a kind of quest to find them, there is no one in Russia, I’ve ordered them from EU and they promissed me to deliver them in February). As soon as I have them I will make new valves and the valve guide to change in the back plug. I think that is quite easy operation which can be done by owner himself. Besides I will make a vid for that.
Sorry for that disadvantage, as you say “He is lifeless that is faultless.”
I will do my best to solve it as soon as possible.
With the best regards
Ed
All Replies
Agree.
And the way the Ed is designed with that raised part, the valve will close more difficult also. Whén it is open, the airflow will try to keep it open.
I’m not gonna use that raised flat part for my raindrop valve. If I had a Ed, I would take that whole raised seat-part away. It’s crap.
But for testing I’ll try to make a insert that takes the raised part away.
All you need is a good flow. When the flow is right, you don’t need heavy hammers and springs to shoot a pellet.
Just as a example of what flow means for a system: My own .30 Uzenac is competly disigned on flow, it shoots JSB 44,75 grain at 265 meter/second at 72Bar.
I made some test with the shape of the valve and the seat to be cone shaped. It didn’t work, in fact as for the air consumption it was much worse. But I tried it at .22 and .25 calibers. Maybe at bigger calibers it works different way. I need to check it out.
What happened next was total serendipity. I used to get 20 shots at 880, now I get 28 shots at 885. I barely have any hammer tension. So far I have 1200 rounds through the new system with no signs of slowing down. At 1000 rounds I inspected the 3 mm valve stem and there was absolutely no sign of wear. Wingman is hypothesis is correct, 130-135 is the right setting. If you have the old valve in service still turn your regulator down. I think it might save your valve stem.
Even with 2 mm rod valve I got about 850 f/sec at standard Matador .30, the regulator was set at 135 bar. But I was afraid that clients will claim for more energy, that is why I had to increase it up to 155 – 160 bar to get more f/sec. Maybe I was wrong and just should follow the wishes of the clients to get more power having not knowing why 🙂
With a correctly set up hammer system there is no need to run a your reg any higher than 130-135bar for the best consistancy and shot count.
Good luck trying to fill it from empty too..
Ed; do the right thing for your customers and do the job right by re designing the .30 valve and hammer set up to be stronger.
A heavier valve and longer/stronger hammer spring is a good place to start.
Chat to Ted “Old goat” he has been down this road already building a .25 cast bullet shooter on a .30 cal matador. Ask him how many valves hes destroyed already..
It will be that way if the hammer spring screw is not turned off as it should be. One can get the same while the valve has spring if the hammer spring to tightened and there is overconsumption of air. I alwasy say that it is importanat to use the gun withing recommended gap of speed with recommended pelelts. But time to time people want to get as much as possible from the gun. Just an example I use my .30 with 2.9 grams JSB flying out with 260 m/sec (853-855 f/sec) and that is more then enough for all my targets (birst up to 5-6 kg (11-13 pounds) at 100 + meters. At 80 meters it penetrates teh bird trough whateven angle it goes. But people want to get more and more even being unable to exmplain why 🙂
Mine was 3.9 grams.
Dan, the springless valve from Robert is 1.75 gm for my .25 R3.
I have to turn the HST out by 3 turns to shoot 900-910 fps.
I tied a small rubber band on the protruded rod to hold it not to fall into the valve chamber for air filling.
Don’t crank the HST too high, avoiding the damage of brass valve nut.
Regards,
Endo
Agree.
And the way the Ed is designed with that raised part, the valve will close more difficult also. Whén it is open, the airflow will try to keep it open.
I’m not gonna use that raised flat part for my raindrop valve. If I had a Ed, I would take that whole raised seat-part away. It’s crap.
But for testing I’ll try to make a insert that takes the raised part away.
All you need is a good flow. When the flow is right, you don’t need heavy hammers and springs to shoot a pellet.
Just as a example of what flow means for a system: My own .30 Uzenac is competly disigned on flow, it shoots JSB 44,75 grain at 265 meter/second at 72Bar.
No problem. A 90 degree flat seat is actually the hardest to open and puts even more load on the matador opperating system.. the .30cal would benifit from a 30 degree taipered seat.
Thanks for the pics Wingman, I know enough now. 😀
Nice design Wingman. How do you ship a sick Edgun to NZ?? :biggrinn: Not sure why this has to be so hard. I think Ed wants to keep his parts list to a minimum! My Gen 1 .30 receiver (bolt housing) says .177 on it! Very collectible! :rofl:
DT
I have been building big bore valves with very light rear springs design for years and run them right up to .50cal PCPs.. none need any more than 135bar to get max velocity and the best efficiency even in pistols with 7″ barrels I can get better numbers with the 44gr JSB than the current .30cal matador does.. Light weight valves/valve springs and a light hammer with heavier “snappy” hammer springs are the way to go.
Springless valves are a pain in the ass to seal/fill and you have to always keep a close eye on your cyl pressure.
It is still working perfectly.
Due to (a lot) less hst I do not think it is necessary to go 3mm.
It must be hardenened, but that should they both be anyhow.
Regards, Robert.
Agree with Robert.
The original valve-concept of Edgun just sucks at high power. The flow is about the worst thing you can think of, and the heavy valve spring ask for large forces of hammer and hammerspring.
With a good-shaped springless valve you need much less power in order to operate the system and 2mm hardened 115CrV3 will do the job just fine.
The only difference is that you have to glue the 2mm like Robert did. The 3mm can do without glue.
atb, Leo.
With a correctly set up hammer system there is no need to run a your reg any higher than 130-135bar for the best consistency and shot count.
Ed; do the right thing for your customers and do the job right by re designing the .30 valve and hammer set up to be stronger.
A heavier valve and longer/stronger hammer spring is a good place to start.
Chat to Ted “Old goat” he has been down this road already building a .25 cast bullet shooter on a .30 cal matador. Ask him how many valves hes destroyed already..
That is what Ed said he was going to do. One of the problems I discovered when I tore my gun apart was that the regulator was set over 160 BAR. Between the thin valve stem, valve spring, heavy hammer and high pressure the stem just wasn’t up for the job. When the new valve was made for me by John Hagan it weighed too much in order to get the speed I wanted. At this point the regulator had been reset to the factory recommended setting of 150 BAR. The valve wasn’t opening enough because of the extra weight. I reset my regulator to 130 BAR and got 880 FPS but with a lot of hammer tension. So at this point I knew I had to lighten the valve so I trimmed it to weigh what the original 2mm valve weighed.
What happened next was total serendipity. I used to get 20 shots at 880, now I get 28 shots at 885. I barely have any hammer tension. So far I have 1200 rounds through the new system with no signs of slowing down. At 1000 rounds I inspected the 3 mm valve stem and there was absolutely no sign of wear. Wingman is hypothesis is correct, 130-135 is the right setting. If you have the old valve in service still turn your regulator down. I think it might save your valve stem.
This is very positive KS!
With a correctly set up hammer system there is no need to run a your reg any higher than 130-135bar for the best consistancy and shot count.
Good luck trying to fill it from empty too.. if you tilt your gun forward when its empty your valve will drop into the plenum and need stripping down to re fit again. Your gun needs a valve spring in place even if only a light one.
Ed; do the right thing for your customers and do the job right by re designing the .30 valve and hammer set up to be stronger.
A heavier valve and longer/stronger hammer spring is a good place to start.
Chat to Ted “Old goat” he has been down this road already building a .25 cast bullet shooter on a .30 cal matador. Ask him how many valves hes destroyed already..
This. I don’t want to keep chasing problems. I would like to keep my valve spring and get the current .30 hammer installed. I am running a 4mm stem now but have options to go back and forth if I need to. I think the lost piece of the puzzle for me is the big hammer. I should be able to back off on HST and still drive to the magic 880. Note that I did try it without the valve spring and almost maxed out HST at 130 bar on the reg = 735fps. Once I dip out of the reg my velocity climbs until maxing out at 804 around 110 bar. I quit after that for reasons described by Wingman. I’m going into hibernation on this until I get some more parts.
Shit this has been quite the project :suprisedn: Mission creep is setting in!! :sadn:
DT
With a correctly set up hammer system there is no need to run a your reg any higher than 130-135bar for the best consistency and shot count.
Ed; do the right thing for your customers and do the job right by re designing the .30 valve and hammer set up to be stronger.
A heavier valve and longer/stronger hammer spring is a good place to start.
Chat to Ted “Old goat” he has been down this road already building a .25 cast bullet shooter on a .30 cal matador. Ask him how many valves hes destroyed already..
That is what Ed said he was going to do. One of the problems I discovered when I tore my gun apart was that the regulator was set over 160 BAR. Between the thin valve stem, valve spring, heavy hammer and high pressure the stem just wasn’t up for the job. When the new valve was made for me by John Hagan it weighed too much in order to get the speed I wanted. At this point the regulator had been reset to the factory recommended setting of 150 BAR. The valve wasn’t opening enough because of the extra weight. I reset my regulator to 130 BAR and got 880 FPS but with a lot of hammer tension. So at this point I knew I had to lighten the valve so I trimmed it to weigh what the original 2mm valve weighed.
What happened next was total serendipity. I used to get 20 shots at 880, now I get 28 shots at 885. I barely have any hammer tension. So far I have 1200 rounds through the new system with no signs of slowing down. At 1000 rounds I inspected the 3 mm valve stem and there was absolutely no sign of wear. Wingman is hypothesis is correct, 130-135 is the right setting. If you have the old valve in service still turn your regulator down. I think it might save your valve stem.
DT
Dan,
I expect that the 3mm raindrop valve will be around 3,4 grams.
So I would start with a light hammer & spring for sure, otherwise the pellet will go supersonic & the hammer will hit the bronze nut.
When it’s ready I’ll send the valve to Brian for testing.
I’m looking for a good picture of the valveseat inside the valvehousing,
The place at the arrow is what I’m looking for. I want to know the shape of it.
It has a raised seat with a 90 degree contact face. The valve seat port is just under 8mm dia.
Photo courtesy of Old Goat
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Ed for what it is worth my .30 is working fine with a copy of your original valve and the original valve spring that came with the gun.