Re: Matador Reg kit to get .25 34gr JSBs up to speed
The EDgun regulator is one of the best in the world. It is straightforward and efficient. The regulator is capable of almost 1 FPS extreme spread. Wingman did an excellent video where he showed that variation is caused by external factors, not the regulator. So the Huma advantage comes from its low profile, this gives more volume in the plenum. I would put it on par with the Edgun regulator regarding efficiency
In the standard, the speed I can achieve realistically is 790 to 810 with the Huma and 34s. The long will hit about 830 max. I don’t like the current set up, and I would like to run the regulator at 120 and get speeds of 880 in the long with 34s. I have some ideas how to do it, and Wingman is going to help.
So be patient I am working on a solution to get more speed and not redline the capability of the Matador
All Replies
Let’s see what happens when these kits start being tested.
I for one can compare it to the power tuned .25 Cricket I have with a nice barrel. This barrel was picked best of five that I tested which was a very rare opportunity I was offered.
The used .25 Matador Std that I just took delivery of shoots the 25.4 gr Kings very well. It’s ready for the power kit install and testing of the 34 gr……
This will be just one example but who has the resources, time or energy to test all these different barrels and twist rates? We’ve been given some insight that the 34 gr perform better at longer distance with a tighter twist than most barrels are offered in. Let’s see what happens…….
As Phil has exclaimed, the ED LW seems the best viable option for now. I concur that FX looks to be headed in a good direction with the ST X barrels and their offer of various twist rates. The vintage BSA barrels have become a rare commodity. It would seem that the non intrusive rifling style sends a more aerodynamic pellet with less drag points.
If I remember correctly the EDgun’s 1:16 twist rate was developed for JSB Heavies .22. It was then taken to .25. Was it properly tested with .25 or just assumed to be the one twist rate to rule them all?
Wingman, if you want to test the twist rates and bore dimensions properly you must think about a representative sample. E.g. if you want to test a twist rate X with bore dimensions Y against pellets Z then I would test 5 barrels with the exact same configuration and make the conclusion. The reason for that is the fact every barrel is different even if it is made in the exact same methodology in the same factory. I had a lot of EDgun barrels shooting like shit and I also had a couple of them shooting accurately despite the fact they were manufactured to the same ED’s rigid standards.
Leshiy 250mm and 350mm twist??
Ed has his own barrel profile built by LW. Gerd Walther and Ed have a very good working relationship. I had lunch with Gerd Walther at shot show and explained the process of Ed and LW developing the barrel used in all EDguns
So to answer the next question, why can’t you find that barrel on LW website. Because it is not for sale except from EDgun
Here is a post from Ed about his new barrel for the R3:
Over the last year we had a lot of research. Including the barrels, the benefit of our close cooperation with the German company Lothar Walther allows us to not just buy media gross barrels, and ordered their blanks, what we want. During the year we “played” with a twist, internal diameters, grooves, finally, the material stems. Made to certain requirements for the R3, LW will now send blanks they make to our specifications.
I thank Gerd Walter, who when our conversation on IWA 2010 exhibition, though perplexed about “Why do you need all these different twists, pressure and so on, because everything is already invented and tested?” However, he did what we requested, including all new tools for the manufacture of our barrels.
It is clear that this is not easy and not cheap, but they “give” the results of which are paid for.
It’s one thing just to buy media gross barrels and quite another to make barrels to specific order. The price of our Lothar Walther barrel is 100% higher than of the price of the gross manufactured pig.
Now we even have the thread, chamfer and crown made at the factory LW. Everything is done at the LW factory, including polished internal bore, on manufacturing premium blanks.
Regarding the inner surface of the barrel, I must admit that we had to pay a little attention to it, it was necessary to periodically clean the barrel, and should be.
The new R3 bores are significantly smoother putting more dependence on accuracy.
On the older bores it was more noticeable with a dirty barrel, with just a few hundred rounds you could scrape up a lot of lead out of the barrel, literally scales settled on a patch, and now, after two and a half thousand shots a patch comes out slightly darkened, but scales of lead is out of the question.
The old gross manufactured barrel bore “cross cut”. Note the rough chatter grooves
and rough dragged un-polished steel from the older tooling of the manufacturing process ..
The new R3 Spec custom L/W barrel cross cut. It is easy to see where the long range accuracy begins…
This gives the user what he needs most – stability result of fire.
In addition, we have moved on to the threading the barrel to the breach, which in a positive way affected the bore, the bore deformed less than it was before. The threaded breach end area of the bore is opened up for the bolt probe and pellet leaving the entire length of the bore unaffected by clamping.
The Matador R 2.5 barrel could be clamped up too tight making a “choking” effect in two places where the barrel mounts clamp up in the centre section of the barrel.
Speaking of barrels and shooting results, it would be wrong to ignore the important question of how to weaponize the R3.
For today, in my opinion, only JSB pellets provide the necessary accuracy and stability of our shooting. Of course some people may say that I am speaking only for the reason that I have the exclusive rights to sell JSB pellets in Russia, but if you approach the situation from the other side – what I had to do to receive this exclusive right, why would I push this product if I was not sure about the quality of products JSB? I work with JSB pellets more than five years, I know well the business owners in the Czech Republic, I have testing with their bullets not just a business relationship, we are friends. And that’s the reason that I know these bullets, I know how they are made, I know people who make them, I know their attitude to what they do. Therefore, all of the experiments we carried out on my barrels were with these pellets and I set up the products under these pellets.
so looking at LW website, looks like their std barrel is 1-17.7.
are all Edgun barrels the 1-16.1 twist? Even the Leishy with it shooting at lower velocities?
Push the envelope ~ approach or extend the limits of what is possible.
Do what you’re personally comfortable with but let those that refine, develop, create and break boundaries do what they do.
It looks like Earnest is going down the S/T-X road right now.. will let him play with it and see what results they can produce.
Just some advice though, a 28″ barrel is too long to get good long range results and completely unnecessary to get velocity.
The crown is not the right platform to test this on, large valve ports and high reg pressures are actually bad for accuracy in rifle length barrels and should only be used in pistols or very short carbines. If you want to make the most of a rifle length barrel you need a low reg setting (120 to 130bar) and longer valve dwell on smaller (not larger) valve ports. Larger ports will shut the valve sooner and cause hammer bounce.
To give you a real world example, the 590mm Edgun long barrel at 135bar on this power plenum shoots the 34gr to a max of 960fps, changing nothing but the barrel to my 450mm BSA barrel it still gets 960fps, the less time a relatively slow moving pellet lingers in a bore the less it is affected by outside/introduced anomalies such as holds, suppressor pressure/vacuum and barrel resignation. I havent even mentioned the negative effects of having a tenacious hammer setting and valve movement. Redlining a gun is never good for testing accuracy potential.
Replying to a reappearing question I keep getting over P/M: Why does does the barrel design effect the pellets BC?
To be completely honest, I dont know. Im guessing it has to do with the rifling marks left on the pellet but what makes one better than the other is a mystery to me also.
The BSA shooting the 34gr heavies at 900fps gives a measured BC of 0.064 while on the same day the Edgun L/W barrel shooting at 900fps gave me a BC of 0.058
There is a small difference in twist rate, 12 grooves in the BSA and 10 in the L/W and the shape of the rifling is different.
The L/W has the straight flat top cut rifling while the BSA has a hammer forged smooth rounded lands almost leaving an aerofoil shaped cut in the pellets:
Its really hard to photograph but this may show you what I mean.
Edgun – L/W
BSA
BSA left —— L/W right
If it is this twist rate and bore shape lifting the BC then I have high hopes for the FX new Smooth Twist X barrel. Im guessing the pellet would exit looking more like a L/W polygon barrel pattern, I dont know what the current .25 crown barrels twist rate is but with an educated guess Id say its a 1-16″.
Anyone here own one that can push a pellet through so I can see the pellet markings?
Has anyone done any real world BC testing on one with the 34gr .25 JSB pellets?
The Crown is a weak platform to try and push these 34s to 900fps plus but the if FX follow through with the “custom request twist rates” these barrels could make a great transplant on a more power capable PCP for some potentially good long range accuracy.
You mean this shiney new rocking horse shit? 😉
I’ve been looking for a bsa barrel for a very long time 😐 unobtainum
The BSA blanks have not been available since about 2010. I have heard many rumours of why, from the hammer forging machine broke or wore out to cost v/s their sister spanish company Gamo making all their barrels now.. either way I know all the old stock is long gone..
If a vintage Hammer forged BSA barrel is what you are after then look out for a donor second hand BSA Lonestar, but beware.. the newer ones had the gamo made barrels after the buy out.
I have no info as to when they ran out of the good hammer forged barrels and started fitting the new button cut barrels but there were a few changes in the gun and barrel markings. I suggest you inspect before you buy.
They made an 18.5″ barreled carbine and a 24″ rifle. If you hunt around some of the european forums especially the dutch ones the guys there know a lot more about finding the right vintage BSA Lonestars.. they are very sort after now for the 100m euro competitions but there are still plenty about that dont know what they have. I know several cases where guns were bought here in New Zealand and exported by some Dutch guys just for the barrels..
http://nzairgun.com/forum/index.php?topic=2060.msg17998#msg17998
Leupy’s Custom Shop in the UK could have some…
http://www.leupyscustomshop.co.uk/content/gallery.php?twg_album=barrel+work
The “old” BSA Lonestar rifles are winning shooting competitions still today.
People are buying the complete rifle just to get the barrel :rofl:
:8: :8: :8:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
Manufacturers. At least they should if they have something called brain in the skull and they are not blinded by the money which are given to them by inexperienced users.
If I start a company, the first thing I will do is extensive barrel research followed by tight cooperation with some leading barrel producer and pellet maker. Without achieving a perfection in accuracy with a couple of scientific publications published, I would not even think about mass production.