Re: Matador Reg kit to get .25 34gr JSBs up to speed
The EDgun regulator is one of the best in the world. It is straightforward and efficient. The regulator is capable of almost 1 FPS extreme spread. Wingman did an excellent video where he showed that variation is caused by external factors, not the regulator. So the Huma advantage comes from its low profile, this gives more volume in the plenum. I would put it on par with the Edgun regulator regarding efficiency
In the standard, the speed I can achieve realistically is 790 to 810 with the Huma and 34s. The long will hit about 830 max. I don’t like the current set up, and I would like to run the regulator at 120 and get speeds of 880 in the long with 34s. I have some ideas how to do it, and Wingman is going to help.
So be patient I am working on a solution to get more speed and not redline the capability of the Matador
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Yes there is… 4 more grooves.. :rofl:
Groove depth and shape plays a big part in the pellets BC once fired.. there are big differences between the BC of the 34gr pellet when fired through various brands of barrels.
If you can convince the guys at TJs (or anyone else) to make some custom 10 to 12 groove 1-15″ to 1.15.5″ twist with different bore designs to test the highest resulting pellet BC then you may be making ground.
If I didnt have a handful of vintage 1-15.8″ BSA barrels Id be personally chasing some barrel manufacturers to do just that.
For everyone else the Edgun barrel is currently the best production barrel available for the job as Brian demonstrated here with sub MOA at 200y
I suppose you could acquire many different barrels for yourself and do testing. This after you R&D your way through creating more regulated air space to propel the 34gr .25 up to speed without stressing out the guns internals.
Personally, I believe we all owe Brian and Phil some gratitude here. They have been down these roads, put in the work and gotten Huub of Huma on board. We’re fortunate to have the opportunity to utilize the fruits of their labor at a very reasonable price.
Thanks for your answers. Nothing wrong, I just like to do some research. Speaking about the number of grooves, is there any practical difference between 6 and 10 grooves?
How about LW polygonal barrels? Do you have any experience with them in terms of JSB King Heavies?
Close to an Edgun no… totally different bore dimentions.
1-15″ twist 10 or 12 micro grooves and a light choke and then you are winning.
Never tested polygonal barrels. They are also slower twists.. let me know how they go if you do test one.
Whats wrong with your Edgun shorty barrel? No need to re invent the wheel here..
Great info Wingman, thanks a ton.
lars
reading through your posts, the heavier pellet wants a faster twist rate for long range stability. so if i am following the pattern, a .30 50gr would like a 1:12 1:10 if you can keep velocity up?
Diabolo pellets have different guidelines to bullets as they range in design so much. Bullets are designed to be as low drag as possible and need to be fired at much higher speeds to be stable in designated twist rates, pellets are designed with high drag skirts to self stabilize at low speeds like a shuttlecocks design.
We are now entering an age of design where the pellets skirts are getting shorter to lessen drag, SD and BC is getting Higher and the pellets are getting heavier and longer which makes them somewhere in between a bullet and a diabolo pellets design, this requiring a faster velocity and twist rates to get good accuracy, especially as they slow up over range unlike the behaviour of the std short high drag pellets like say the 25.4gr Kings which have a much better low velocity v/s stability window.
I experimented some time ago with the very long 36gr Daystate pellets, I actually shot them backwards at 50y and unlike a JSB king it won’t swap ends mid flight and enter the target head first, they will continue to the target and hit skirt first cutting nice sharp holes like a wad cutter.
This is the brink of a bullet design and no longer a high drag pellet, Thus requiring closer to bullet designed bores.
I have also experimented with chokes, without going to deeply into it, it seems the the longer heavier pellets actually prefer a very light choke or no choke at all. The bearing surface contact also plays a part here though.
When shooting a new 34gr from a lets say 1-17.7″ L/W barrel at 800-820fps it will do ok to about 100y but as the pellet slows its reduced skirt size and overall pellet length does not hold it as stable as a 25.4gr king would at the same range and speed.
The gains in accuracy at 200y + we are seeing are directly related to higher retained velocity and pellet RPM at these ranges.
There is a real balance at play with velocity v/s twist as to not over speed or spin a high drag pellet either as it is detrimental to accuracy also.
We need to remain in the subsonic realm which in turn limits the diabolos design to shorter ranges than bullets but need not limit the accuracy.
Re you question about.30cal, 1:12 and 1-10″ are too fast, they would be more suited to a bullet at 2500fps of 130gr to 180gr range.
At 900fps the high drag 44gr .30cal pellets like a 1-16 to 1-17″ twist and the 50gr closer to 1-15″
Do you think that a custom made TJ with 1:15 or 1:16 twist rate will be close to EDgun barrel?
How about LW polygonal barrels? Do you have any experience with them in terms of JSB King Heavies?
Niether.. TJ barrels are 5 groove bullet barrels and are detrimental to pellet BC for long range shooting. They requre a chamber cutting to seat a pellet in the deep rifling without damaging the pellet.
Both barrel twists will shoot fine to 100 yards but have no advantage for shooting 200y+ over the Edgun barrel.
The 1-22″ is too slow for the 34gr so requires more velocity which is limited by the speed of sound and the 1-14″ is too fast so shoots best at a lower velocity of 800ish fps which also kills any long range ability.
These 34gr pellets stabilize best through a 1-15 to 1-16 at 890 to 960
I am also interested in TJ barrel. As you mentioned it is more a bullet like design. Which twist rate would be better for Heavies? 1:14 or 1:22?
Yes but it is not as air efficeint as the std or long as it needs a little more reg pressure to get the 890 to 900fps. This comes a a cost of a lesser shot count.
It can be achieved from a shorty, right? I mean the speed.
900 to 930fps
So what is the optimum speed for the 34gn .25 pellets when shooting from a Matador barrel? Is it the 960fps speed tht’s been discussed?
reading through your posts, the heavier pellet wants a faster twist rate for long range stability. so if i am following the pattern, a .30 50gr would like a 1:12 1:10 if you can keep velocity up?
Diabolo pellets have different guidelines to bullets as they range in design so much. Bullets are designed to be as low drag as possible and need to be fired at much higher speeds to be stable in designated twist rates, pellets are designed with high drag skirts to self stabilize at low speeds like a shuttlecocks design.
We are now entering an age of design where the pellets skirts are getting shorter to lessen drag, SD and BC is getting Higher and the pellets are getting heavier and longer which makes them somewhere in between a bullet and a diabolo pellets design, this requiring a faster velocity and twist rates to get good accuracy, especially as they slow up over range unlike the behaviour of the std short high drag pellets like say the 25.4gr Kings which have a much better low velocity v/s stability window.
I experimented some time ago with the very long 36gr Daystate pellets, I actually shot them backwards at 50y and unlike a JSB king it won’t swap ends mid flight and enter the target head first, they will continue to the target and hit skirt first cutting nice sharp holes like a wad cutter.
This is the brink of a bullet design and no longer a high drag pellet, Thus requiring closer to bullet designed bores.
I have also experimented with chokes, without going to deeply into it, it seems the the longer heavier pellets actually prefer a very light choke or no choke at all. The bearing surface contact also plays a part here though.
When shooting a new 34gr from a lets say 1-17.7″ L/W barrel at 800-820fps it will do ok to about 100y but as the pellet slows its reduced skirt size and overall pellet length does not hold it as stable as a 25.4gr king would at the same range and speed.
The gains in accuracy at 200y + we are seeing are directly related to higher retained velocity and pellet RPM at these ranges.
There is a real balance at play with velocity v/s twist as to not over speed or spin a high drag pellet either as it is detrimental to accuracy also.
We need to remain in the subsonic realm which in turn limits the diabolos design to shorter ranges than bullets but need not limit the accuracy.
Re you question about.30cal, 1:12 and 1-10″ are too fast, they would be more suited to a bullet at 2500fps of 130gr to 180gr range.
At 900fps the high drag 44gr .30cal pellets like a 1-16 to 1-17″ twist and the 50gr closer to 1-15″
Ok, so the fact is that ED’s .25 barrel is the correct choice for JSB King Heavies and a power kit, right?
Correct. The heavies like 1-15″ to 1-16″ when shot at 900fps+ at long ranges and prefer a lighter choke. Eds barrel is the only barrel Im aware of currently being made in this faster twist rate with light chokes.
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You should sell me one barrel since you have a handful :whistle: